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    Ritual Weaponry

    A couple different tools in various mystical traditions also happen to be weapons (swords, staves to a degree, I don't remember if spears are a common option off hand). Out of curiousity,

    Who uses ancient weaponry in ritual?

    If you do use a weapon as a ritual implement, do you also train in the martial skills associated with that weapon? If yes, do the martial training and spiritual practice influence each other?
    life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

    Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

    "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

    John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

    "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

    Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis



    #2
    Re: Ritual Weaponry

    I don't actually do rituals, but I do train with a variety of weapons - swords, quarter staff, pole axe, and, yes, rifles.

    I do have some thoughts about this, though. Swords are often used to draw protective circles in ritual magic. When you draw a circle with a sword, you are essentially outlining the defensible area you can control with a sword (i.e.: this is the range you can reach with the tip of the weapon). So, symbolicly, the area within the circle is "safe ground."

    The connection between the magician's staff and the quarter staff (think Gandolf) comes from this - the quarter staff, despite it's appaerent humbleness (it's a stick) is an absolutely awesome weapon. A person armed with a quarter staff - assuming he/she knows how to use it well - can defend his/her self against any non-projectile weapon.

    In fact, despite what you see in the movies, it is the only weapon can can realisticly be used to defend against mutlple attackers. On top of that, it is cheap - free - and, back in the day, anybody could have one.

    You end up seeing, in old woodcuts, old men or pilgrims walking with a staff. That's not to help them stay upright. They carry them for self defense at a time when policing was virtually non-existant. If you look closely at the old woodcuts you will often find that there is a small spike on either end of the staff. This simple, very cheap addition turns an outstanding defensive weapon into an equally awesome killing tool.

    So, picture of old man on pilgrimage with staff = wizard with magical tool to later eyes. Although, if used to draw a protective circle, it would have the same symbolic value as a sword, but a bigger circle.

    P.S. The walking stick that the dandies of yesteryear used in their dance routines come from shortened sticks carried by people for self defense as well. A shorter stick is easier to use in a city. A quarterstaff requires room to be used effectively.
    Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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      #3
      Re: Ritual Weaponry

      Circle of Protection = Circle of "I'll stab you with my sword for entering" is an entertaining connection that I hadn't really thought of. Thanks Corbin!
      life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

      Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

      "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

      John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

      "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

      Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


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        #4
        Re: Ritual Weaponry

        Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post
        Circle of Protection = Circle of "I'll stab you with my sword for entering" is an entertaining connection that I hadn't really thought of. Thanks Corbin!
        Yeah - during the Elizabethian Era, which was also the hey-day of ritual magic (Dr. john Dee for instance), their was a huge attempt made to create a scientific basis for rapier fencing. The surviving manuals from the time period were full of geomtric drawings illustrating the concepts of attack and defense.

        In these two pictures you can clearly see the defensive circle illustrated:

        image.jpg

        image.jpg
        Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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          #5
          Re: Ritual Weaponry

          I use Samurai sword's (both long and short blade's) as part of my practice though I've only messed around informally with training with them. Tried a two handed long sword a few times but it's not very user friendly for ritual work in my opinion. Foil's felt to flimsy to me though I tried a few of those out while I was stationed in Spain. I like swords and have been drawn to them but never really got around to really learning to use them as weapons or be trained properly in their usages.

          I do think though there is a whole mental and ritual practice that goes with edged weapons in general that goes far beyond what is normally applied when using them as part of ones practice. It's an art unto itself that is weaved into ritual usage.
          I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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            #6
            Re: Ritual Weaponry

            LOL - foils are swords in the same way that footballs a bombs. I.e.: not at all.

            The epee is a reasonable facsimli of the gentleman's small sword, if you discount the fact that the epee has no edge, but the foil is purely a sporting toy. Foils were created specifically to make sport fencing into a faster, less painful, sport. Nobody will learn much about actual martial arts from a fencing saber either.

            Rapiers were completely unlike any of those weapons, though you will often find people who think that skills from sport fencing can actually transfer to martial swordsmanship. I used to think that myself, until I tried out actual weapons...

            P.S. I could babel about weapons for days
            Last edited by B. de Corbin; 29 Oct 2016, 08:16.
            Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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              #7
              Re: Ritual Weaponry

              Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
              LOL - foils are swords in the same way that footballs a bombs. I.e.: not at all.
              Foils are interesting though you do see them pushed as "Swords" in some places. One store in Rota Spain sold a lot of Toledo blades and had a section of Foils is where I held a few of them. All the ones I held I seem to recall had a balled tip or point though most of them had a basket type hilt which is why I think they got put in with the swords. I could have spent hours in that place unfortunately I could have also spent hundreds of thousands of dollars as well of which I didn't have.

              Man did a quick reference check of epee, foil and Sabre to refresh myself and now not sure what they were in Rota as it had the slim blade, balled tip but definitely had a basket type hilt about it to protect the hand. Could swear, well memory wise anyway, they were labeled as Foil's which is why I never gave Foil's much consideration after that. Yet that basket type Hilt seem's more common to the Rapier than to the Foil.

              Rapiers were completely unlike any of those weapons, though you will often find people who think that skills from sport fencing can actually transfer to martial swordsmanship. I used to think that myself, until I tried out actual weapons...
              I'll defer to your experience here. Never trained in that capacity so have no experience and observational experience in that capacity is of little value i've discovered over time when you don't have the basic's to judge it by.

              P.S. I could babel about weapons for days
              Lost a lot of the terminology now but still like to talk about it.
              I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Ritual Weaponry

                Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                Rapiers were completely unlike any of those weapons, though you will often find people who think that skills from sport fencing can actually transfer to martial swordsmanship. I used to think that myself, until I tried out actual weapons...

                P.S. I could babel about weapons for days
                About the only things I can think of that might reliably transfer are judging distance and maybe a little about timing. Actual bladework has a lot of options that I don't see a foil replicating. Even if you toss out all the actual rules in sport fencing, foils aren't swords. Having a blade and not having your weapon bend quite so easily are huge factors.


                More on ritual topics, has anyone seen a ritual system that uses a non-sword, non-staff weapon (axes come to mind as an example, so can hammers depending on the mindset) frequently?
                life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


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                  #9
                  I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Ritual Weaponry

                    I use a 4 lb sledge with a short handle to mark warded/sacred space for Heathen rites. While a hammer is obviously important in Heathenism, this hammer is important to me because it was my grandfather's, then my father's, and someday will belong to my grandson. My "training" with my hammer involved busting up rocks, driving stakes, knocking tires onto and off of rims, etc.
                    I often wish that I had done drugs in the '70s. At least there'd be a reason for the flashbacks. - Rick the Runesinger

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                    For the Yule was upon them, the Yule; and they quaffed from the skulls of the slain,
                    And shouted loud oaths in hoarse wit, and long quaffing swore laughing again.

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                      #11
                      Re: Ritual Weaponry

                      I have a staff that is part of my journey kit, which doubles as a sort of weapon in the Otherworlds... but I don't train with it as a quarter staff and it certainly couldn't be considered a weapon here (it's just a fallen branch that I've altered and added to, probably too thick to use as a quarter staff anyway).

                      I would very much like to have a small bearded axe, and train in how to use it... I'm not sure where it would fit into 'ritual tools' other than being another tool in my journey kit, though.

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                        #12
                        Re: Ritual Weaponry

                        I use a double-edged knife, but it's not special other than being associated with my practice. I actually do what to get a sword, because of the strength and weight of the weapon.
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