Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 12

Thread: Ritual Weaponry

  1. #1
    PF Ordo Hereticus MaskedOne's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    7,543
    Religion
    Jedi
    Location
    elsewhere
    Phrase
    The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant compared to the power of the Force.

    Ritual Weaponry

    A couple different tools in various mystical traditions also happen to be weapons (swords, staves to a degree, I don't remember if spears are a common option off hand). Out of curiousity,

    Who uses ancient weaponry in ritual?

    If you do use a weapon as a ritual implement, do you also train in the martial skills associated with that weapon? If yes, do the martial training and spiritual practice influence each other?
    "It is not simply enough to know the light…a Jedi must feel the tension between the two sides of the Force…in himself and in the universe."
    ―Thon

    "When to the Force you truly give yourself, all you do expresses the truth of who you are,"

    Yoda

    Yoda told stories, and ate, and cried, and laughed: and the Padawans saw that life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

    Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

    "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

    John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

    "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

    Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis



  2. #2
    The Gaze of the Abyss B. de Corbin's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    8,093
    Religion
    Alchemist and Neo-American Redneck Buddhist
    Location
    Frozen Northern Michigan, near Thunder Bay
    Phrase
    Where are the tweezers?

    Re: Ritual Weaponry

    I don't actually do rituals, but I do train with a variety of weapons - swords, quarter staff, pole axe, and, yes, rifles.

    I do have some thoughts about this, though. Swords are often used to draw protective circles in ritual magic. When you draw a circle with a sword, you are essentially outlining the defensible area you can control with a sword (i.e.: this is the range you can reach with the tip of the weapon). So, symbolicly, the area within the circle is "safe ground."

    The connection between the magician's staff and the quarter staff (think Gandolf) comes from this - the quarter staff, despite it's appaerent humbleness (it's a stick) is an absolutely awesome weapon. A person armed with a quarter staff - assuming he/she knows how to use it well - can defend his/her self against any non-projectile weapon.

    In fact, despite what you see in the movies, it is the only weapon can can realisticly be used to defend against mutlple attackers. On top of that, it is cheap - free - and, back in the day, anybody could have one.

    You end up seeing, in old woodcuts, old men or pilgrims walking with a staff. That's not to help them stay upright. They carry them for self defense at a time when policing was virtually non-existant. If you look closely at the old woodcuts you will often find that there is a small spike on either end of the staff. This simple, very cheap addition turns an outstanding defensive weapon into an equally awesome killing tool.

    So, picture of old man on pilgrimage with staff = wizard with magical tool to later eyes. Although, if used to draw a protective circle, it would have the same symbolic value as a sword, but a bigger circle.

    P.S. The walking stick that the dandies of yesteryear used in their dance routines come from shortened sticks carried by people for self defense as well. A shorter stick is easier to use in a city. A quarterstaff requires room to be used effectively.
    Those who have suffered understand suffering and therefore extend their hand.

    I can't do everything, but I can do something.

  3. #3
    PF Ordo Hereticus MaskedOne's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    7,543
    Religion
    Jedi
    Location
    elsewhere
    Phrase
    The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant compared to the power of the Force.

    Re: Ritual Weaponry

    Circle of Protection = Circle of "I'll stab you with my sword for entering" is an entertaining connection that I hadn't really thought of. Thanks Corbin!
    "It is not simply enough to know the light…a Jedi must feel the tension between the two sides of the Force…in himself and in the universe."
    ―Thon

    "When to the Force you truly give yourself, all you do expresses the truth of who you are,"

    Yoda

    Yoda told stories, and ate, and cried, and laughed: and the Padawans saw that life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

    Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

    "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

    John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

    "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

    Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis



  4. #4
    The Gaze of the Abyss B. de Corbin's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    8,093
    Religion
    Alchemist and Neo-American Redneck Buddhist
    Location
    Frozen Northern Michigan, near Thunder Bay
    Phrase
    Where are the tweezers?

    Re: Ritual Weaponry

    Quote Originally Posted by MaskedOne View Post
    Circle of Protection = Circle of "I'll stab you with my sword for entering" is an entertaining connection that I hadn't really thought of. Thanks Corbin!
    Yeah - during the Elizabethian Era, which was also the hey-day of ritual magic (Dr. john Dee for instance), their was a huge attempt made to create a scientific basis for rapier fencing. The surviving manuals from the time period were full of geomtric drawings illustrating the concepts of attack and defense.

    In these two pictures you can clearly see the defensive circle illustrated:

    image.jpg

    image.jpg
    Those who have suffered understand suffering and therefore extend their hand.

    I can't do everything, but I can do something.

  5. #5
    Silver Member monsno_leedra's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    2,520
    Gender
    male
    Religion
    Shamanic Practitioner & Green / Hedge Witch with Hellenic leanings
    Location
    West Virginia
    Phrase
    Can't never did nothing till it tried!

    Re: Ritual Weaponry

    I use Samurai sword's (both long and short blade's) as part of my practice though I've only messed around informally with training with them. Tried a two handed long sword a few times but it's not very user friendly for ritual work in my opinion. Foil's felt to flimsy to me though I tried a few of those out while I was stationed in Spain. I like swords and have been drawn to them but never really got around to really learning to use them as weapons or be trained properly in their usages.

    I do think though there is a whole mental and ritual practice that goes with edged weapons in general that goes far beyond what is normally applied when using them as part of ones practice. It's an art unto itself that is weaved into ritual usage.
    I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

  6. #6
    The Gaze of the Abyss B. de Corbin's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    8,093
    Religion
    Alchemist and Neo-American Redneck Buddhist
    Location
    Frozen Northern Michigan, near Thunder Bay
    Phrase
    Where are the tweezers?

    Re: Ritual Weaponry

    LOL - foils are swords in the same way that footballs a bombs. I.e.: not at all.

    The epee is a reasonable facsimli of the gentleman's small sword, if you discount the fact that the epee has no edge, but the foil is purely a sporting toy. Foils were created specifically to make sport fencing into a faster, less painful, sport. Nobody will learn much about actual martial arts from a fencing saber either.

    Rapiers were completely unlike any of those weapons, though you will often find people who think that skills from sport fencing can actually transfer to martial swordsmanship. I used to think that myself, until I tried out actual weapons...

    P.S. I could babel about weapons for days
    Last edited by B. de Corbin; 29 Oct 2016 at 08:16.
    Those who have suffered understand suffering and therefore extend their hand.

    I can't do everything, but I can do something.

  7. #7
    Silver Member monsno_leedra's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    2,520
    Gender
    male
    Religion
    Shamanic Practitioner & Green / Hedge Witch with Hellenic leanings
    Location
    West Virginia
    Phrase
    Can't never did nothing till it tried!

    Re: Ritual Weaponry

    Quote Originally Posted by B. de Corbin View Post
    LOL - foils are swords in the same way that footballs a bombs. I.e.: not at all.
    Foils are interesting though you do see them pushed as "Swords" in some places. One store in Rota Spain sold a lot of Toledo blades and had a section of Foils is where I held a few of them. All the ones I held I seem to recall had a balled tip or point though most of them had a basket type hilt which is why I think they got put in with the swords. I could have spent hours in that place unfortunately I could have also spent hundreds of thousands of dollars as well of which I didn't have.

    Man did a quick reference check of epee, foil and Sabre to refresh myself and now not sure what they were in Rota as it had the slim blade, balled tip but definitely had a basket type hilt about it to protect the hand. Could swear, well memory wise anyway, they were labeled as Foil's which is why I never gave Foil's much consideration after that. Yet that basket type Hilt seem's more common to the Rapier than to the Foil.

    Rapiers were completely unlike any of those weapons, though you will often find people who think that skills from sport fencing can actually transfer to martial swordsmanship. I used to think that myself, until I tried out actual weapons...
    I'll defer to your experience here. Never trained in that capacity so have no experience and observational experience in that capacity is of little value i've discovered over time when you don't have the basic's to judge it by.

    P.S. I could babel about weapons for days
    Lost a lot of the terminology now but still like to talk about it.
    I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

  8. #8
    PF Ordo Hereticus MaskedOne's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    7,543
    Religion
    Jedi
    Location
    elsewhere
    Phrase
    The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant compared to the power of the Force.

    Re: Ritual Weaponry

    Quote Originally Posted by B. de Corbin View Post
    Rapiers were completely unlike any of those weapons, though you will often find people who think that skills from sport fencing can actually transfer to martial swordsmanship. I used to think that myself, until I tried out actual weapons...

    P.S. I could babel about weapons for days
    About the only things I can think of that might reliably transfer are judging distance and maybe a little about timing. Actual bladework has a lot of options that I don't see a foil replicating. Even if you toss out all the actual rules in sport fencing, foils aren't swords. Having a blade and not having your weapon bend quite so easily are huge factors.


    More on ritual topics, has anyone seen a ritual system that uses a non-sword, non-staff weapon (axes come to mind as an example, so can hammers depending on the mindset) frequently?
    "It is not simply enough to know the light…a Jedi must feel the tension between the two sides of the Force…in himself and in the universe."
    ―Thon

    "When to the Force you truly give yourself, all you do expresses the truth of who you are,"

    Yoda

    Yoda told stories, and ate, and cried, and laughed: and the Padawans saw that life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

    Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

    "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

    John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

    "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

    Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis



  9. #9
    Silver Member monsno_leedra's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    2,520
    Gender
    male
    Religion
    Shamanic Practitioner & Green / Hedge Witch with Hellenic leanings
    Location
    West Virginia
    Phrase
    Can't never did nothing till it tried!

    Re: Ritual Weaponry

    Was years ago but I was involved in an on-line discussion with a couple of devotee's of Thor who used Hammers as symbolic representations of Mjölnir in their practice. In practice basically substituted for a sword in drawing and establishing their sacred space. But nothing like a circle or sacred space as seen in a Wiccan usage or notion of a circle from what I recall from the discussion. Want to say it was on the old A Mystical Grove (AMG) site or TripleMoon site (both long defunct now) but might have been on the MysticWicks site but believe it was before I had joined that site. It sort of stuck in my head due to the usage of the hammer as it was rather unusual and Nordic type influences were still not to common at the time.
    I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

  10. #10
    Copper Member Rick's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    703
    Gender
    male
    Religion
    Old Customs
    Location
    OOOOOklahoma!!!
    Phrase
    Damn somebody's eyes

    Re: Ritual Weaponry

    I use a 4 lb sledge with a short handle to mark warded/sacred space for Heathen rites. While a hammer is obviously important in Heathenism, this hammer is important to me because it was my grandfather's, then my father's, and someday will belong to my grandson. My "training" with my hammer involved busting up rocks, driving stakes, knocking tires onto and off of rims, etc.
    I often wish that I had done drugs in the '70s. At least there'd be a reason for the flashbacks. - Rick the Runesinger

    Blood and Country

    “Barbarianism is the natural state of mankind. Civilization is unnatural. It is the whim of circumstance. And barbarianism must ultimately triumph.” - Robert E. Howard

    Clan of my Clan
    Kin of my Kin
    Blood of my Blood



    For the Yule was upon them, the Yule; and they quaffed from the skulls of the slain,
    And shouted loud oaths in hoarse wit, and long quaffing swore laughing again.

Similar Threads

  1. The use of ritual
    By B. de Corbin in forum Practices and Techniques
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 28 Mar 2016, 03:48
  2. Ritual Jewelry?
    By ScarlettPhoenixx in forum Practices and Techniques
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 05 Dec 2014, 12:04
  3. Could Use Some Help in a Ritual for me and my daughter
    By SimplePagan in forum Catacombs
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 01 Oct 2014, 16:57
  4. Using sex as a ritual
    By Djnn in forum Catacombs
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 27 May 2012, 10:10

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •