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    Advice for working with developing watchers

    Some of you will probably have heard of the term "watcher," but I'll explain for those who don't know the word or who have encountered this concept under another name.


    A watcher, in my personal spirituality, is a being which you set a particular task (such as helping with wards, divination, certain types of spells, etc.). Sometimes the watcher is non-sentient; this type is just a network of thoughts and/or intentions and/or abilities that you've set in motion - almost like a set of code or a heuristic that, while perhaps mimicking human processes, is not itself sentient. At other times, a watcher is sentient - it's something you create or evoke and then imbue with some of your own being and/or some of the essence of a trusted deity or other guide.


    So, I've been working with a watcher (as one of my warders) for several years now. It began as a construct that was given a spark of life, but which wasn't sentient and couldn't direct its own actions beyond a certain limit. But now this watcher has grown into something sentient. I don't know if it will stay with me throughout this development or take off on its own journey; I don't think it knows this about itself yet, in fact.


    I just wanted to know if any of you have had an experience in which a non-sentient watcher takes on a life of its own. If so, do you have any recommendations for how to proceed in the best manner possible? I've never encountered this particular situation before, so any advice would be greatly appreciated.
    OO

    Book of Spirals is my author site.
    The Sentient Hillside is my blog.
    Spiral Tree is an ezine for pagans I co-founded.

    #2
    Re: Advice for working with developing watchers

    I know these beings as 'servitors', not 'watchers'. Usually, it's responsible practice to create your servitor with failsafes to prevent them from evolving beyond your specifications... age limits, anchoring them to a vessel or object, an inability to obtain energy for themselves, physical or geographical constraints, self destruct cues etc etc. Unfortunately, many poorly defined servitors develop a certain level of sentience and autonomy... but because they are created beings rather than an entity, they cannot develop fully and therefore end up becoming astral nasties, leeches, or opportunistic scavengers.

    It's important to remember that we are directly responsible for the servitors that we create and release. If a servitor is no longer under our control, it's encumbant on us to ensure that it does not harm, feed from or latch onto another being. This usually means trapping or destroying it.

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      #3
      Re: Advice for working with developing watchers

      Watchers also known as Grigori are referenced in Strega

      To some Strega they are known as the Grigori

      Here.

      Known by others as 'Nefilim. Also in the book of Enoch it speaks of the watchers.
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        #4
        Re: Advice for working with developing watchers

        To follow onto Rae'ya's entry of Servitor a Servitor can evolve into an egregore if enough people or power is feed into it within the ceremonial / high magics perspective. It is also believed that after a certain point and under certain conditions an egregore can attain a sense of self awareness and freedom where it becomes free roam and self aware to the point where it can function and sustain itself. Even obtaining a free roam status when the sigil that is part of its creation / destruction programming is destroyed and should destroy it but fails to do so but in fact releases it from any sort of control over it. The idea of the power word being feed into the egregore as in the Golem mythology can also create a free roam rogue.

        Egregori / Egregore is related to the term Grigori that annunitu makes mention of but goes back even further.

        When I was first taught about it though it was all part and parcel of the sequence of "Constructs" or stages a practitioner was introduced to. You started with the most basic of constructs such as dollies, minor guardians, etc.

        Tulpa's as mental constructs also fall into the near servitor / egregore role but if you read the eastern literature on them they are not servitors / egregore as those are typically seen in western magical systems. Constructs such as the Jewish Golems who are activated with magical words fall into higher level and might even pass into the category of inshrined or ensouled host body if you consider the power word in some stories is the "Breath of God" which sort of suggests God was powering the creation by his presence within the created body.
        I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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          #5
          Re: Advice for working with developing watchers

          Originally posted by anunitu View Post
          Watchers also known as Grigori are referenced in Strega

          To some Strega they are known as the Grigori

          Here.

          Known by others as 'Nefilim. Also in the book of Enoch it speaks of the watchers.
          I'm pretty sure Ouranos isn't talking about THE Watchers (as in, the progenitors of Nephilim)... but then I also disagree with the linked page and it's conflation of deities in different cultures as 'watchers'. For a start, the Anunnaki and the Nephilim are not the same group of entities. The Anunnaki are Sumerian gods, of which there are more than four. The Grigori (which is the Slavic name, not the Greek name) are a group of specific angels, also known as the Watchers, while the Nephilim are their half human offspring.

          I know that some pagans like to take a syncretist approach... but that particular website has tried to stretch it a bit too far.

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            #6
            Re: Advice for working with developing watchers

            Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
            I'm pretty sure Ouranos isn't talking about THE Watchers (as in, the progenitors of Nephilim)... but then I also disagree with the linked page and it's conflation of deities in different cultures as 'watchers'. For a start, the Anunnaki and the Nephilim are not the same group of entities. The Anunnaki are Sumerian gods, of which there are more than four. The Grigori (which is the Slavic name, not the Greek name) are a group of specific angels, also known as the Watchers, while the Nephilim are their half human offspring.

            I know that some pagans like to take a syncretist approach... but that particular website has tried to stretch it a bit too far.
            What I was taught of the Grigori is they are the "Mind Watchers". Near as I can put it in words is the projected minds that would look in from afar and sort of existed separate but part of the person who projected that aspect of themselves. Not astral or etheral projection as it was sort of like they would reach out and borrow the eyes of creature's in the area to "See" through. Even if it was only reflected eyes as if in a mirror's reflection. The lady who taught me in my youth absolutely refused to teach that to me as I was to young in her opinion for that one. But she always kept mirrors covered at night or had candles burning in front of them near as I recall all these years later when they were uncovered.
            I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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              #7
              Re: Advice for working with developing watchers

              Originally posted by Ouranos Ouroboros View Post
              So, I've been working with a watcher (as one of my warders) for several years now. It began as a construct that was given a spark of life, but which wasn't sentient and couldn't direct its own actions beyond a certain limit. But now this watcher has grown into something sentient. I don't know if it will stay with me throughout this development or take off on its own journey; I don't think it knows this about itself yet, in fact.
              Something described like this is what I would call "an automous psychic projection" (important note: I'm using the language of psychology because I understand that language. This does not mean that descriptions in the language of "the occult" are wrong - to me, it is just a different language). An autonomous psychic projection is a type of mental sub-entity that, for one reason or another, forms in the uncious mind and begins to act independently.

              Multiple personalities would be an extreme form of this, but in milder forms one might feel that their are entities around one that can speak or act.

              As Rea'ya wrote, an autonimous psychic projection needs to be re-integrated into the core personality (again, I am translating into the language of psychology) because it draws it's energy from the same source that the core personality draws it's energy. If not reabsorbed it can become overpowerful, harm the core personality, and suck it's energy - like a leech.

              - - - Updated - - -

              Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
              What I was taught of the Grigori is they are the "Mind Watchers". Near as I can put it in words is the projected minds that would look in from afar and sort of existed separate but part of the person who projected that aspect of themselves. Not astral or etheral projection as it was sort of like they would reach out and borrow the eyes of creature's in the area to "See" through...
              This description sounds more like the "unmoved observer" that evolves after a period of serious meditation practice. I would not consider it dangerous, in fact, its a good thing. It is the self (the ego) strengthened to the point where it can monitor the actions of the body - and the bodily functions, such as anger - without being immersed in them.

              It is what allows a Buddhist practitioner to develop "detachment."
              Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                #8
                Re: Advice for working with developing watchers

                Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                Something described like this is what I would call "an automous psychic projection" (important note: I'm using the language of psychology because I understand that language. This does not mean that descriptions in the language of "the occult" are wrong - to me, it is just a different language). An autonomous psychic projection is a type of mental sub-entity that, for one reason or another, forms in the uncious mind and begins to act independently.

                Multiple personalities would be an extreme form of this, but in milder forms one might feel that their are entities around one that can speak or act.

                As Rea'ya wrote, an autonimous psychic projection needs to be re-integrated into the core personality (again, I am translating into the language of psychology) because it draws it's energy from the same source that the core personality draws it's energy. If not reabsorbed it can become overpowerful, harm the core personality, and suck it's energy - like a leech.

                - - - Updated - - -



                This description sounds more like the "unmoved observer" that evolves after a period of serious meditation practice. I would not consider it dangerous, in fact, its a good thing. It is the self (the ego) strengthened to the point where it can monitor the actions of the body - and the bodily functions, such as anger - without being immersed in them.

                It is what allows a Buddhist practitioner to develop "detachment."
                Sounds like your talking about soul fragments or fractured souls. It / they draw their power and strength from the energy of the being they are fractured from within the context of some shamanic beliefs / practices. Though psychology wise it would / could be multi-personalities I suppose. I think from the shamanic aspect though it is recognized that the fractured aspect maybe human of any age for when the fracture occurred but may also be seen as animal like in that it is more beast than human as it is more primordial. The so called snarling beast mind / monkey mind or animal within vice the higher human mind. Gets somewhat iffy though I suppose in that it can be a physical / psychological ideal or a theological / cultural ideal of self and / or spirit that can be fractured from the individual.

                It is possible I didn't understand exactly why she though it was dangerous for me as I was barely into my teens at the time. Emotionally, psychologically, physically, spiritually, occult wise I probably was head strong and stubborn in the extreme. I know my own family had introduced me to things then stopped them until a few more years had passed until I matured some more as I was quick tempered for example. Didn't look for trouble but didn't really walk away from it either. Sad part is some of the things she started to open me up to ended when my family moved so I never got to finish the book so to speak. Yet other's have talked to me and listened to things I've described and told me she got me a lot further than I ever figured she did.

                Many times over the years it seems dangerous was not that something was dangerous in and of itself the danger lay in me due to my age or attitude / disposition towards things. Which did make it dangerous though there was a difference between cause and causality.
                I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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                  #9
                  Re: Advice for working with developing watchers

                  I've used divination and meditation before, but I can't exactly be sure to help you. You might try developing through out-of-body experiences as mentioned above. I'm not experienced like others are in this forum. Good luck.
                  Last edited by anubisa; 30 Oct 2016, 14:26.
                  Anubisa

                  Dedicated and devoted to Lord Anubis and Lady Bast. A follower of the path of Egyptian Wicca.

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                    #10
                    Re: Advice for working with developing watchers

                    Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
                    What I was taught of the Grigori is they are the "Mind Watchers". Near as I can put it in words is the projected minds that would look in from afar and sort of existed separate but part of the person who projected that aspect of themselves. Not astral or etheral projection as it was sort of like they would reach out and borrow the eyes of creature's in the area to "See" through. Even if it was only reflected eyes as if in a mirror's reflection. The lady who taught me in my youth absolutely refused to teach that to me as I was to young in her opinion for that one. But she always kept mirrors covered at night or had candles burning in front of them near as I recall all these years later when they were uncovered.
                    Honestly Monsno, I find this explanation a bit confusing. Was your teacher from Stregheria? From what I can tell, certain traditions have bastardised the Grigori based on the fact that they are called 'The Watchers' and that their name sounds like 'egregore'.

                    The Grigori come from the Book of Enoch. In Greek they are called the 'egregoroi', which in Slavic is 'Grigori', both of which have been transliterated into English as 'The Watchers' (from watchful/wakeful etc). They are angels who were originally set to watch over humans, but they ended up defecting (some say because of lust... some say because they became fond of humans and didn't like the treatment they normally got from other angels), teaching humans a whole lot of things they weren't supposed to teach us, then bred with human women and produced a race of human-angel hybrids called the Nephilim. There is also some suggestion that the Grigori are the host of fallen angels, and that the fall of the Grigori is the same event as the fall of ha Satan and his angels (who then became 'Demons'). The story is also mentioned in Jewish texts.

                    The fact that the Grigori are called 'The Watchers' has nothing to do with any sort of guarding circles, doorways or quarters. It's because the term 'egregoroi' means something roughly equivalent to 'watcher/watchful'. Because their job was to watch over the human race. The term 'egregoroi' is the root of the term 'egregore' (one is Greek, the other is French), but the use of the word 'egregore' that we know today was developed relatively late by ceremonial magicians and was not used to describe the Grigori.

                    If anyone wants to know more about the Grigori as angels and progenitors of the Nephilim, I'll see if I can convince Torey to pop in and give you all the gory details with full references. This is one of his areas of expertise.

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                      #11
                      Re: Advice for working with developing watchers

                      Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                      Honestly Monsno, I find this explanation a bit confusing. Was your teacher from Stregheria? From what I can tell, certain traditions have bastardised the Grigori based on the fact that they are called 'The Watchers' and that their name sounds like 'egregore'.
                      All I can honestly say is she was an older Italian lady and I think her family came from Sicily but not positive on where she came from. Some of the terms she used are Stregherian some are not which always lead me to believe it was more of a folk practice. But then again Stregia as a whole was a folk practice and was different in varying parts of Italy even though a few authors have tried to paint it as some collective semi-uniform type practice.

                      Word usage wise to be honest I simply use a word's meaning by how I was taught. Sort of like the word "HOG". I was raised with a hog being a large pig and a heavy hand gun. You knew the difference by how the word was used. Later the Hog motorcycle was added as well as the description of "hog" for the person who eats and eats. Did it bastardize the word? Perhaps.

                      How she used and passed down her understanding and usage of Grigori, as well as how I understood it, may be bastardized, I really do not know. Heck maybe even how she had to put it into words for me to understand and her broken English to get it across confused it. But in my youth she didn't sound strange or unusual to me though later in life people would ask me how I understood her as they said she had broken English. But heck, people would ask how I could be drunk and be speaking to drunk Scot's and we'd be speaking no problem and they'd not understand nearly a word any of us would be saying with our accents.

                      I do know she eye's everywhere. Did you know Roses have eyes? Don't see that one printed in most of those Streghian book's but met a few practitioners while I was in Sicily and in Northern Italy. Have spoken to a few on-line via Pm's who would ask me about the Rose eye's. Those roses are sometimes known as watchers and there was a logical pattern to how they were planted around a person's home. I used to try to sneak up on her house at different times via different routes and she would tell me the watchers would tell her and show her how I approached.

                      I understand what your saying about the biblical usage of Watchers and the Book of Enoch. Even the notion of revolting from their jobs for whatever reason. Even how the term was borrowed later as part of the western mystical movements. Not only borrowed but modified or perhaps updated to make it fit a new usage or agenda. But I also understand humanity and language tends to re-purpose words quite frequently even to the point that a word looses all connections to its original meaning or purpose.

                      But if you look I never said anything about guarding circles, doorways or quarters. I just said they could reach out, borrow and see through other "Eyes" and were like projected minds. If I take what she taught me and apply it to my own life I have to come to the conclusion she was referring to the capacity of a parent that seems to always be of two minds. One mind always aware of their present and one mind always aware of what is happening to those they are watching from afar. Seeing all that is occurring even though they are not there but able to tell you exactly what is going on when they are hurt, when they are scared, when they are down and depressed even when they are coming to visit or what they are experiencing when they are driving away. The watcher from afar who see's through other eyes and yes can even influence and make their presence known but its not astral or etheral projection its not dream walking or any sort of projection in that common pagan / occultish sense that fills the books. For in many instances those watchers are tied into all the eyes that are part of their surroundings and are viewing all the inputs and shift their attentions and focus to a single point as needed.

                      For her and her beliefs and teachings they were called the Grigori the watchers.
                      I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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                        #12
                        Re: Advice for working with developing watchers

                        How does this concept differ from thought forms or golems? Is it the same concept? If so, then I think I've had the experience of a thought form becoming an entity in its own right, but he now lives in my inner world and has a job to do there, so he isn't causing any trouble.

                        In his book Awakening Spirits, Tom Brown Jr. describes a story his spiritual teacher told him. In it a man receives a gargoyle-like demon from a sorcerer to help him with his chores. He's warned to keep it busy or else it will cause mischief. The man runs out of jobs for the demon which grows bigger and bigger and gets out of control. He eventually pacifies the demon by ordering it to straighten a curly hair, which of course bounces back as soon as the demon let's go, and so keeps it busy indefinitely.

                        The story was used as a metaphor for the conscious mind and how sometimes it needs to be kept busy by focusing on breathing, or counting etc, in order to allow the subconscious or higher self to be heard. However, I also took it a bit more literally as a warning that these beings we create to do our bidding need to be kept busy or else have time restrictions etc, to prevent them from causing mayhem when the job they were created to do has been completed.
                        夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

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                          #13
                          Re: Advice for working with developing watchers

                          This is a fascinating conversation, though I'm unfamiliar with many of the traditions and beings referenced. Even if I don't address all of the responses directly, I've attentively read all of them.


                          I recently read a brief article about Stregheria and would like to look into it more. I really don't feel much resonance with Jewish archetypes, though I find the language (especially its tri-literal systems of roots and its expression in cantillation) to be quite amazing. I was taught the Guardians of the Watchtowers are sets of symbols and not entities at all, but others might disagree; I don't call to the Guardians of the Watchtowers unless I'm working with others who are comfortable with that language - and I always use my own set of symbols to cast the circle, even if I'm also using others.


                          The watcher began as something that a conscious animal archetype/ deity helped to imbue with consciousness. And it began, pretty early on, to occasionally do things that I hadn't directed it to do, though they were in keeping with my moral code. In fact, its primary interest in the first year or two (at our old house) was to help even more people than it had been asked to. Its primary location shifted to the crossroad near that house, and the spirit began to influence other households. It also began to ruminate over data it obtained from the creatures in the area, using their experiences to grow. I didn't mind, even if it sometimes asked for extra energy, because it made the neighborhood safer and insisted that it only benefit others, and only in accordance with their own moral codes except where me or my family or friends might be adversely affected otherwise. At this house, the spirit has moved away from its animal-based incarnation and has taken on the form of a person from one of the Germanic myths that was (though it was probably already quite old) collected by the brothers Grimm. The entity is using this archetype for its current personality, even as it reaches out to collect more stories. At present, we've agreed that it should stop functioning as a warder (perhaps temporarily, perhaps permanently) because it is examining morality for itself and might develop different viewpoints from my own. I've always found the entity to be scrupulously conscientious, however, and I've never worried that it might harm anyone without clear cause. I've also never felt I should try to prevent its evolution or cause it to self-destruct or anything like that. I think the entity and the deity that helped imbue it with consciousness would view that as improper, if not offensive, conduct on my part. I'm not saying that would be wrong in other cases, but I feel very strongly that it would in this one.


                          I'll keep an eye on this thread. I'm loving the conversation and will keep following it if people want to keep sharing. Thanks, everyone!
                          OO

                          Book of Spirals is my author site.
                          The Sentient Hillside is my blog.
                          Spiral Tree is an ezine for pagans I co-founded.

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                            #14
                            Re: Advice for working with developing watchers

                            Thanks for sharing your experience Ouranos Ouroboros. It sounds like I might be talking about the same thing then.

                            Originally posted by Ouranos Ouroboros View Post
                            I'll keep an eye on this thread. I'm loving the conversation and will keep following it if people want to keep sharing. Thanks, everyone!
                            Does this mean you'd like us to share our own experiences? If it means we can talk about something that isn't the US election, I guess I'm willing to bare all and share one of mine.

                            I've rarely worked with thought forms in recent years, but I might have made one accidentally recently...

                            After a break of several months I was struggling to get back into studying Japanese. When I was first learning to speak I used to pretend to have a conversation with a kokeshi doll. I wanted to do this again because it's hard to practice conversation on your own, and I thought it might make studying more fun. I got myself a new kokeshi doll, but used the same name for her.

                            The doll (I) can speak more freely these days so it's much more effective this time around. When I speak irl I'll often correct myself because my mouth moves faster than my brain, so when I'm chatting to the doll, she corrects me instead. Nothing supernatural so far... it's just me talking to myself.

                            Then the doll started offering more information. Sometimes I'd ask how to say something and then answer for the doll and look up what she said, and she'd often be right.

                            This made me see the doll as a key to accessing knowledge that I'm not aware I have. For example, my subconscious may have noticed a phrase or pattern while I was listening to native speakers, but I never consciously acknowledged it. The doll just helped to unlock that knowledge. Still not a spirit in her own right though.

                            Then last week I was about to study so started chatting to the doll. She suggested that I warm up like I'd have my students do when I taught English. The warm up would be some kind of word game that focused on vocabulary that would come up in the lesson. I didn't know what would come up in my textbook so couldn't tailor the activity to relevant vocab, but I opened a picture dictionary and started naming things in an image of a post office. There were two words I didn't know 'knot' (musubime)'and 'bow knot' (choumusubi). These both come from the verb 'musubu' meaning 'to tie', which I did know.

                            Then I opened the textbook and the lesson was about pareidolia (seeing images or faces in objects). It used the example of that cat's cradle game where you make shapes by winding yarn around your hands, explaining that people from different regions give the shapes different names depending on the local landscape and culture. The article used a lot of words derived from 'musubu', not only literally to describe the cat's cradle game, but also figuratively as in 'associating one thing with another' or the objects being 'connected' in your mind.

                            It was so weird, like the doll planned the whole lesson. It was then that I realised I'd probably made a thought form. When I used to make them in the past I would attach them to a statue or object, so maybe talking to a wooden doll triggered the process unconsciously and I made myself a Japanese tutor!

                            Either that, or its Chucky all over again!
                            夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

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                              #15
                              Re: Advice for working with developing watchers

                              As entertaining as I find Chucky (and Tiff), I hope that doesn't happen in your classroom!


                              It sounds like the doll has either become a focus, or maybe just a repository, of conscious and subconscious linguistic knowledge; it may also have become a (probably non-sentient) watcher. I've never had an object serve as a focus in quite the way you're describing, but that's probably because my psychometry skills are very low (I tend to work with abstract thought-objects in many, if not most, cases).


                              Still, I don't see any obvious problem with your doll; indeed, it appears to be helping both you and your students. You might want to talk to a spirit guide you trust just to make sure any developing personality holds values that are parallel to yours and that there are no opportunities for harmful spirits to enter. But, assuming the doll passes this test, it sounds like a very effective tool.


                              In fact, I've been wanting to brush up on my French and modern Greek. Maybe I should get a doll...
                              Last edited by Ouranos Ouroboros; 21 Nov 2016, 17:37.
                              OO

                              Book of Spirals is my author site.
                              The Sentient Hillside is my blog.
                              Spiral Tree is an ezine for pagans I co-founded.

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