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Thread: Positive, negative, and no stimulation

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    Sr. Member Ouranos Ouroboros's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Positive, negative, and no stimulation

    I was reading over a few posts written by parents both earlier today on another site and just now on this site. I was going to answer a couple of the threads here, but I got a warning that the threads were too old; therefore, I decided to post a comment here of which I feel all parents should be aware.

    Children (and other people in general) will usually prefer positive attention, such as a reward, to negative attention, such as a punishment (assuming the two don't get mixed together, which can sometimes happen), but they will - in almost every circumstance - prefer negative stimulation to no stimulation whatsoever.

    Sometimes a parent will punish a child in a context in which the child isn't receiving much attention. In a case like that, the parent might actually be reinforcing the child's behavior instead of quashing it. If you want to know more, find some articles on reinforcement scheduling - once parents get what this is about, it often helps them solve problems with their kids.

    This comment isn't directed at any individual in particular; it's just something of which many of the parents I meet are unaware.
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    Loud Mouth Heka's Avatar
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    Lol, I teach kids, and i see this every single day. So many teachers, and parents, think a kid has bad behaviour, but it is nearly always attention seeking behaviour. Once you work that out, and work out why the kid is seeking attention, bad behaviour is really easy to manage.
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    Sr. Member faye_cat's Avatar
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    Re: Positive, negative, and no stimulation

    Very excellent point! Another thing I see among young children and toddlers especially is that they will continue to do the negative behavior until you remove the temptation and replace the action with something they can do, at which point you give them positive encouragement.

    How this might play out is that a toddler is pulling something out of the container. You say "No!" while removing the container and the pieces, and then move them and give them a toy while saying "You can play with this".

    I shake my head at the amount of parents and caregivers I see who just repeat "no" while doing nothing else, or tapping the child's hand away from the item without moving them at all.
    “I am Cat and I walk alone and all ways are the same to me.” ~Rudyard Kipling, The Cat Who Walks By Himself

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    Silver Member monsno_leedra's Avatar
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    Re: Positive, negative, and no stimulation

    Quote Originally Posted by Heka View Post
    Lol, I teach kids, and i see this every single day. So many teachers, and parents, think a kid has bad behaviour, but it is nearly always attention seeking behaviour. Once you work that out, and work out why the kid is seeking attention, bad behaviour is really easy to manage.
    Of course the reverse side of that is I've walked behind a number of kids coming out of classes and listened to them comment about acting up and how such and such a teacher is such an easy mark and so easy to manipulate. Act up a little, tell them a sob story and they think they've done so much to aide them. Not all for sure but more than many want to admit to. Count tell you how many drivers I had that would come in and sit down with us and relate the stories of troubled kids who played the system like pro's. Had more than a few of them who'd wait at our transportation office at times for connecting rides and you'd hear the same stories from various grades ranging from elementary to high school students.

    Saw it also in the team's I coached and the Scout Pack's and Troop's I was a leader in.

    Sometimes bad behavior is a cry for help. But sometimes bad behavior is simply bad behavior and the way a kid does things.
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    Loud Mouth Heka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by monsno_leedra View Post

    Of course the reverse side of that is I've walked behind a number of kids coming out of classes and listened to them comment about acting up and how such and such a teacher is such an easy mark and so easy to manipulate. Act up a little, tell them a sob story and they think they've done so much to aide them. Not all for sure but more than many want to admit to. Count tell you how many drivers I had that would come in and sit down with us and relate the stories of troubled kids who played the system like pro's. Had more than a few of them who'd wait at our transportation office at times for connecting rides and you'd hear the same stories from various grades ranging from elementary to high school students.

    Saw it also in the team's I coached and the Scout Pack's and Troop's I was a leader in.

    Sometimes bad behavior is a cry for help. But sometimes bad behavior is simply bad behavior and the way a kid does things.
    Yeah i know plenty of teachers like that. They're as bad as the parents.

    And even bad behaviour being the way a kid does things, there's a reason they do it like that, and again, once you work it out, you can work around and counter it.
    ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic

    RIP

    I have never been across the way
    Seen the desert and the birds
    You cut your hair short
    Like a shush to an insult
    The world had been yelling
    Since the day you were born
    Revolting with anger
    While it smiled like it was cute
    That everything was shit.

    - J. Wylder

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    Silver Member monsno_leedra's Avatar
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    Re: Positive, negative, and no stimulation

    Quote Originally Posted by Heka View Post
    Yeah i know plenty of teachers like that. They're as bad as the parents.

    And even bad behaviour being the way a kid does things, there's a reason they do it like that, and again, once you work it out, you can work around and counter it.
    For the most part I agree but sometimes even knowing the why you can't do much to counter it or help the student. Not to say the student is a lost cause but the conditions are such that so called normal responses will not work nor routine responses within the established system. There-in is where the failure occurs for the system is not designed to handle those situations and those students tend to fall out for one reason or another. While a large portion of them might be labeled as special needs not all of them are special needs as in disabilities but they are special situations such as broken families, homeless, abusive situations, runaways but not homeless, economic, even home schooled was some that were encountered in the school system I worked for.

    Yet for all of that there were still some who were cruel simply for cruelties sake and enjoyed inflicting pain and suffering upon others. Under every other condition they had exceptionally well ordered lives and no troubles or issues. Even to the point of one case where they terrified their mother and she begged the system to help her before they brutally murdered her. One would like to think that the exception vice the norm but it was not and is not and such cases occur more frequently than are reported. But in each case, there are at least four in my general area I can think of in the last decade, where each time people say those kids were all such sweet kids. That same bad behavior also related to the bully behavior that influences the suicide rate among young teens and such which also tends not to be reported or spoken of a whole lot.

    I like to believe bad behavior can be figured out and the person or student can be worked with and a work around and counter to the behavior put in place. But I also know not all things have a reason behind an action and you can't always work around it or counter it. But agree that doesn't mean we shouldn't at least try as best as we can to do so.
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    Re: Positive, negative, and no stimulation

    Children need love but they also need to learn how to behave. There is a line that should be drawn by parents. A line that doesn't move or change. This provides children with security.
    Love and discipline must go hand in hand for a child to become a healthy adult.
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    Loud Mouth Heka's Avatar
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    Re: Positive, negative, and no stimulation

    Quote Originally Posted by monsno_leedra View Post
    For the most part I agree but sometimes even knowing the why you can't do much to counter it or help the student. Not to say the student is a lost cause but the conditions are such that so called normal responses will not work nor routine responses within the established system. There-in is where the failure occurs for the system is not designed to handle those situations and those students tend to fall out for one reason or another. While a large portion of them might be labeled as special needs not all of them are special needs as in disabilities but they are special situations such as broken families, homeless, abusive situations, runaways but not homeless, economic, even home schooled was some that were encountered in the school system I worked for.
    I still maintain, with all these situations, that understanding the reasons for the misbehavior go a long way to either fixing/helping or ignoring the behavior, IF you are willing. There's a teacher in our school right now who does not believe that one students, who is intellectually disabled, is doing enough to help himself. But this kid only has one parent, who has depression, who he looks after, as well as being a teenage boy with an intellectual disability. This other teacher thinks he should be able to do better, and doesn't excuse certain behaviours, and so gets poor results from this students. I on the other hand, do excuse some behaviours, and discuss others with him, and for me he's a wonderful students. I don't put my energy into dealing with behaviours that this students cannot help, and worry about ones I can, and his learning.

    Yet for all of that there were still some who were cruel simply for cruelties sake and enjoyed inflicting pain and suffering upon others. Under every other condition they had exceptionally well ordered lives and no troubles or issues. Even to the point of one case where they terrified their mother and she begged the system to help her before they brutally murdered her. One would like to think that the exception vice the norm but it was not and is not and such cases occur more frequently than are reported. But in each case, there are at least four in my general area I can think of in the last decade, where each time people say those kids were all such sweet kids. That same bad behavior also related to the bully behavior that influences the suicide rate among young teens and such which also tends not to be reported or spoken of a whole lot.
    These are called psychopaths. I can't speak to this because thankfully I've never had one in my class. I've heard horror stories. I'm sure I'll meet one eventually. And they are sweet kids, because they are bloody intelligent and master manipulators. That's a key indicator of being a bloody psychopath.

    I like to believe bad behavior can be figured out and the person or student can be worked with and a work around and counter to the behavior put in place. But I also know not all things have a reason behind an action and you can't always work around it or counter it. But agree that doesn't mean we shouldn't at least try as best as we can to do so.
    Here the key word is try. You've gotta be open to helping all children. And know which behaviours to overlook. Not every behaviour is a battle, and especially when we're talking about attention seeking behaviour, negative behaviour needs to be discouraged/avoided/not acknowledged (within reason) so that the positive can be praised.

    Again, psychopaths a different matter and I have no experience with them.
    ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic

    RIP

    I have never been across the way
    Seen the desert and the birds
    You cut your hair short
    Like a shush to an insult
    The world had been yelling
    Since the day you were born
    Revolting with anger
    While it smiled like it was cute
    That everything was shit.

    - J. Wylder

  9. #9
    Silver Member monsno_leedra's Avatar
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    Re: Positive, negative, and no stimulation

    Quote Originally Posted by Heka View Post
    I still maintain, with all these situations, that understanding the reasons for the misbehavior go a long way to either fixing/helping or ignoring the behavior, IF you are willing. There's a teacher in our school right now who does not believe that one students, who is intellectually disabled, is doing enough to help himself. But this kid only has one parent, who has depression, who he looks after, as well as being a teenage boy with an intellectual disability. This other teacher thinks he should be able to do better, and doesn't excuse certain behaviours, and so gets poor results from this students. I on the other hand, do excuse some behaviours, and discuss others with him, and for me he's a wonderful students. I don't put my energy into dealing with behaviours that this students cannot help, and worry about ones I can, and his learning.
    That one is often a hard call. In part I suppose because of an individual teacher's (and school administrations) expectations & biases of what a Special Need's Student is capable of doing. Reality wise it's the same argument applied to any student but for Special Needs it just seem's, to me anyway, many times it's either to narrow or so wide it's nearly useless. I say narrow because there is a sense of "Why are they here" that is still found" yet also to wide in that "We can't expect them to do better" mentality that I ran into. Sometimes though I do attribute that to new teachers or old teachers in their career's.

    I dislike the term but the Special Needs students are a category all unto themselves simply because usually they have no singular "Disability" and even trained teacher's are not qualified for all the variations those "Disabilities" come joined as. That and what works for an ED (emotional Disorders) student may not work for an MD (mental disorders) student or an TBI (traumatic Brain Injuries) student for example. Yet IEP's (Individualized Education Program) are usually written it seem's addressing the most recognized or testable condition that shows up but not specifically the only one. Yet many times those IEP's are in place for a year and not subject to review though the student may actually change through out the year.

    Not sure how it is in your school system but in the one I worked in various groups were placed together. Didn't mean the available teacher was qualified for all the "groups" he / she might find in his / her classroom. But the classes were spread through out the county due to limited qualified teachers and classrooms so we transported students all over. Sometimes sharing facilities with other school systems / regional programs due to costs, specific nature of a program's focus or even the nature of the student himself / herself and their special needs that could not be provided for by our school system.

    These are called psychopaths. I can't speak to this because thankfully I've never had one in my class. I've heard horror stories. I'm sure I'll meet one eventually. And they are sweet kids, because they are bloody intelligent and master manipulators. That's a key indicator of being a bloody psychopath.
    For those who will be murder's I can see this but those who will pass into the manipulator who will "Push" or "abuse" it's not quite so clear. Many times it seem's they fall into the clique where they are the upper groups I think. We had a young girl who went to school with my niece who killed herself due to the abuse and punishment those clique's gave her. Some teacher's observed it and did nothing, other's think it's just part of growing up and probably saw it but didn't pay it much mind.

    Here the key word is try. You've gotta be open to helping all children. And know which behaviours to overlook. Not every behaviour is a battle, and especially when we're talking about attention seeking behaviour, negative behaviour needs to be discouraged/avoided/not acknowledged (within reason) so that the positive can be praised.
    Agree we gotta try.

    Again, psychopaths a different matter and I have no experience with them.
    Murder's probably not. Egotistical and cliquish which can be just as deadly maybe more than you've though about.
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    Re: Positive, negative, and no stimulation

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsFriend View Post
    Children need love but they also need to learn how to behave. There is a line that should be drawn by parents. A line that doesn't move or change. This provides children with security.
    Love and discipline must go hand in hand for a child to become a healthy adult.
    See the joy of having your own children is that you get to raise them how you see fit. Sometimes lines need to be moved depending on the situation and having this idea that it's your way or the highway doesn't work for every child.

    That's like saying you treat a special needs child the same way you treat any other child, and you dont. Every pchild/person is different.

    But again your kids you do what you think is best, just like I'll do what I think is best.
    Last edited by kalynraye; 07 Nov 2016 at 08:12.
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