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  • #16
    Re: Caroline Myss

    Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
    Just sort of flying by at the moment but Caroline Myss is missing one thing in her Chakra system that I hear lots of eastern systems go into that western systems ignore. The chakra system is built upon greater wheels and lessor wheels. The greater wheels align along the spine and are the main wheels that carry what might be called spiritual energy upwards through the body and downwards from Spirit. Thus you have Kundalini (serpent) rising or falling. When the wheels are aligned and open the spirit energy rises and awareness is opened and awakened or enlightenment is received from a higher source and received into the body. Kundalini and the serpent rising and awakening is often seen as being similar to the old Bryzatine art depictions where the enlightened person has the golden halo around their head as they have received enlightenment or wisdom and the crown chakra has opened.

    Yet there are also the lessor wheels that actually move the physical energy of the body. These are located at the joints basically, ie ankles, knees, hips, wrists, elbows, hips, shoulders, etc. A few charts I saw sort of align them with Chi charts and acupuncture charts as well though not sure if that was just a particular authors attempt. But anyway since they are lesser chakra's they feed and move the actual energy currents and status of the body and are actually what feeds into the root chakra. In essence they are the actual energy of the physical body.

    Where it gets a bit difficult and to be honest not sure I fully understood or agree was that the greater chakra's also sit over and somewhat allow for monitoring the underlying system. So while the total system feed goes into the root chakra juncture points influence and can be observed at overlay points. But the overlay points can not specifically be influenced to affect / effect the underlying lessor wheels at that point. You can only loosely monitor the point actual change and influence would be at the root level or at the lesser chakra juncture point. Sort of the acupuncture point.

    She's using the idea of the spiritual chakra body and influences upon the body but ignoring the lessor wheels which influence the physical body. In many ways its the mind over matter concept. The companion systems she's comparing it to are also using spiritual bodies of though.

    That's part of what is slowing me down. I recall the chakra system is companioned to the lesser wheels, The Caballa system I don't recall what or if there is a physical companion system, The Christian system of the Sacraments and body equations I really do not know. She doesn't really use a Buddhist system but recall aspects of it tie to acupuncture points for what connects to what parts of the body and how it is affected.
    She actually does acknowledge the existance of the lesser chakras in one of her talks on youtube. She doesn't concern herself with them though, just mentions in passing that there are 'probably many others'. I can try to find it if you like, but it's just a single sentence so probably not worth it.

    Mind Body and Spirit magazine covers some of the minor chakras though!! ^^

    You seem to be implying that these lesser chakras are part of the nadi system rather than the same as the seven main chakras, only smaller?
    夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

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    • #17
      Re: Caroline Myss

      The way it was explained to me was like a river system. People tend to focus on the major water ways ie the seven major chakra's. Yet the seven only work and function properly because they get their energy and input from the lessor wheels or many feeder streams and rivers that actually create and make up the system. If those are blocked, fail or corrupted then the main rivers become corrupted. The more of them that are corrupted then the more corruption that is fed into the main flow.

      Where it got sort of complicated and really falls into her structure is the physical influences the spectral, or in this instance the auric. The chakra's also have a color associated with them that for some equate to the auric colors. Yet it was explained to me the auric colors match the lessor wheel functions not the greater wheel functions.

      If I understand the nadi system correctly that would probably be correct. They apply to the physical body where it was explained to me the seven major wheels apply to the greater body which is not specifically the physical body. Resides connected to it but is not specifically it. Almost a higher self I suppose. In the west we tend to talk of a higher self that is mental only. Yet my understanding, perhaps misunderstood I admit, was the seven wheels pertain to and align with the higher body. Something akin to the Egyptian idea of the BA or maybe the KA. Yet it is a higher spiritual body that can be entered or achieved, never was quite sure of which.

      Have to admit though i've been told westerners on the whole tend to get the chakra concept as messed up as we do the concept of karma. The chakra's are of the physical body but do not pertain to the physical body regarding kundalini and such. The body they refer to is a higher body that is charged or formed and anchored at seven points to the human physical body. Any anchor point being corrupted or out of balance and the whole was misaligned and pretty much failed. So the greater wheel told you where the anchor was and what areas tended to affect it but the lesser wheel was where it's energy came from. Definitely not something you tend to find in western usage of the chakra system practices.
      I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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      • #18
        Re: Caroline Myss

        Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
        The way it was explained to me was like a river system. People tend to focus on the major water ways ie the seven major chakra's. Yet the seven only work and function properly because they get their energy and input from the lessor wheels or many feeder streams and rivers that actually create and make up the system. If those are blocked, fail or corrupted then the main rivers become corrupted. The more of them that are corrupted then the more corruption that is fed into the main flow.

        Where it got sort of complicated and really falls into her structure is the physical influences the spectral, or in this instance the auric. The chakra's also have a color associated with them that for some equate to the auric colors. Yet it was explained to me the auric colors match the lessor wheel functions not the greater wheel functions.

        If I understand the nadi system correctly that would probably be correct. They apply to the physical body where it was explained to me the seven major wheels apply to the greater body which is not specifically the physical body. Resides connected to it but is not specifically it. Almost a higher self I suppose. In the west we tend to talk of a higher self that is mental only. Yet my understanding, perhaps misunderstood I admit, was the seven wheels pertain to and align with the higher body. Something akin to the Egyptian idea of the BA or maybe the KA. Yet it is a higher spiritual body that can be entered or achieved, never was quite sure of which.

        Have to admit though i've been told westerners on the whole tend to get the chakra concept as messed up as we do the concept of karma. The chakra's are of the physical body but do not pertain to the physical body regarding kundalini and such. The body they refer to is a higher body that is charged or formed and anchored at seven points to the human physical body. Any anchor point being corrupted or out of balance and the whole was misaligned and pretty much failed. So the greater wheel told you where the anchor was and what areas tended to affect it but the lesser wheel was where it's energy came from. Definitely not something you tend to find in western usage of the chakra system practices.
        And yet still considered worth explaining in little old Mind Body and Spirit magazine! That magazine is so full of surprises! ^^'

        Seriously though, despite my spirituality being pretty much made up as I go along (albeit based on experience and the constant testing of theories), I don't see anything in what you've said that couldn't fit into my own way of viewing the energy system of the body.

        Having said that, I could not personally consider the minor chakras as the same thing as the major chakras. You see, I'm not even sure at this stage that the 7 chakras we're talking about are anything other than the glands themselves. I consider them so closely tied to the glands that the gland IS the chakra and the chakra IS the gland. They can't be separated in my mind, and to my surprise having recently got back into yoga, I've realised that the glands come up quite a lot in yoga, with the affect of certain poses on the glands frequently discussed. Even my diet revolves around this belief in the importance of the endocrine system, as I'm careful to consume (to my knowledge) what is required to support the glands and the hormones they produce.

        The minor chakras are in the hands, feet, ears, pulse points, etc, etc... places you do not find glands. As such, while an important part of the whole system, they are not the same thing as the 7 major chakras as far as I am concerned. However, as far as I can remember (I'm at work but can check MBS when I get home, unless Heka can pipe in before then), the minor chakras are actually linked to the major chakras. For example, I think the ones in the hands are related to the crown chakra or something. In that case, I guess a blockage or issue in a minor chakra could very well affect the major chakra it is linked to (and vice versa of course).

        The book however, is talking specifically about how emotions affect the body, and emotions are at the most basic level, chemical. That is, while the emotion may originate in our brain (although not always, it is just as often our brain responding to the chemicals which is why foods, medications and environmental factors can all affect our mood), our endocrine system responds by producing hormones to give us the physical feelings that we associate with each emotion. Therefore, I have to conclude that while I agree that the minor chakras have their role within the energetic body, if we're focusing on the relationship between emotions and wellness, it seems that the major chakras are the best place to focus ones attention.

        BUT, I totally get that this is just my own way of processing and understanding these things.

        Bit of a derail but also relevant to my last statement. I heard an episode of Hippy Witch yesterday where she said that the true nature of reality can't ever be understood by just one person, so instead we all wear different tinted glasses to perceive it through. That's why you can get two conflicting spiritual concepts that are entirely valid to the individuals. A person wearing red tinted glasses will insist the sky is orange.. because it is orange, to that person. Another will see it as blue, because that's how their blue tinted glasses perceive it.

        She also said however, that one has to work within the scope of their own tinted reality. So for example, your reality may not allow for Pagansim and Christianity to work together in one path, so you will forever argue blind that anyone attempting this is wrong. They're not though, they just have cool 3D glasses with one red lens and one green!

        I thought that was a sweet analogy!
        夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

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        • #19
          Re: Caroline Myss

          I think where we probably differ the greatest is it seems your seeing things in the physical body where I was taught its in the etheral or auric body. As such the visible indicators she is seeing are not physical they are almost spectral and are revealed in the imagery and colors of the etheral or auric body which is what for me the chakra system aligns to.

          Emotions and environmental factors affect / effect the physical body for certain. They create stresses and other physical manifestations that act upon the body. Yet the imbalances are not immediately visible upon the physical initially. It is only once the imbalance or injury has advanced to a certain point that it becomes physically visible or identifiable.

          However it is visible as a disruption upon the etheric or auric body almost immediately. Initially for many as a change in the auric colors that surround the body, for other's I've known its a change in smell about the person and over time they've learnt to equate smells to certain areas of the body, for others imagery. Yet for them, well the ones I've known personally, it's never the physical body it's always the etheric or auric body they recognize.

          But I also admit most of them are older and we learnt to use the etheric body concept. We learnt to use it in color regression, projection, even healing. The lessor chakra's also play a role in it as we relax the whole of the body starting with the extremities and work our way inward many times and release the etheric body from the physical body. I suppose for many of us the legs & feet also held the poisons and corruptions of the body the most and were used to flush them from the body. I suppose the two hottest spots in the body actually being through the naval and the head thus the last two spots to release between the etheric and physical body. Sort of an aside though but was sort of the naval held us to our mother and life and the head to our logical self and grounding. So the two hardest to let go, one on a base level the idea of life itself and the other the idea of reality & sanity.

          I should note the etheric body is not the same as the astral body that is so popular today. The etheric was not connected to the idea of the O.B.E. or the N.D.E. experience nor the astral which many saw as being projected within the astral landscape or outside the astral landscape. But that is a different discussion.

          But paradigm's really never played into any of it. So Christian, Pagan, etc was not a factor nor something we considered to be truthful. That's why we more identified with "Occultist" than anything else. Those paradigm's imply and infer a religious base and structure / restrictions along with all the fears and limitations that went along with them. That's one of the big issues of her book, it relies upon the paradigm and her reading of it's influence upon a person to account for what is happening to them. I don't discount that their own psychology and paradigm has influenced them but I don't give it as much influence as the author is pushing as a catalyst. It's presenting a situation of it has to be this and only this, nothing else could be a factor or contributing cause.

          Sad part is right now with Chakra 1 a lot of what she seems to be saying is don't worry if something is wrong, not your fought. It's because of your family, your environment, your tribe, your ethics, your this or your that, everything but you as an individual it's all from something outside of you. You can correct it by confronting them and claiming you power and justice back. But so far she hasn't really said anything about accepting your own culpability and accountability in what is ailing the person. Its all things external to them and affecting / effecting and influencing them from the outside. Nothing about their own internal strengths and taking responsibility. Even telling them to leave the situation is not really about internal accountability and strength that is running away and giving power to the thing / situation / person that took it from you.
          I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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          • #20
            Re: Caroline Myss

            Finally have time to reply here!

            I can't say for sure, because it's still an area I'm exploring and developing, but I think you're right in assuming that I see the chakras as a part of the physical body. It's not that straight forward though.

            I think I was influenced initially by the koshas in yoga. Although these are usually seen as going inwards rather than emanating outwards, they otherwise correspond pretty well to the layers of the aura and as I first came to these concepts via yoga, it's understandable that I'd filter the information this way. Then when I came back to the concept of my body being sacred, I came to see the auric system as comprising of several layers that diminish in density. The physical body simply being the densest of these layers, yet still just as much a part of the auric system as the mental or astral layers. I guess it might just be my paganism that makes me view the physical as just as magical and spiritual as any other part of a being. After all, I've often read or heard other pagans discussing the fact that this is one of the points over which traditional Eastern and modern day pagan spirituality differs. Or else it's the influence of the experience I had with White Horse. Maybe a bit of both?

            If I believe the physical to be part of the aura, then I have no difficulty in seeing how physical issues could be perceived in the less dense layers. In fact, I'm currently considering if the chakras may exist through every layer, simply appearing as glands in the physical body, but taking on more energetic forms elsewhere in the aura.


            I did check MBS by the way. The information there is very surface level as I'm sure you can imagine, so there's very little to go on. It does however mention that there is a minor chakra for the thymus gland, which kinda raises a few questions as to validity of my chakra system. <-like I keep saying, I'm still working on this. Oh and the hand chakras are related to the heart not the crown as I'd written the other day. I should have known that when I think about it because healers claim to channel from the heart and through the hands! Doh!

            Finally..

            I guess we'll have to come back to the subject after reading the entire book, but I'd be surprised if Myss allows her readers to shift responsibility onto outside factors. Firstly, the impression I got from the interviews I've seen is that she laments the fact that people give up their power by blaming situations outside of themselves, or else refuse to heal because they find comfort in the Wounded or Victim archetype. Secondly, it would be a bit strange to follow this book up with a book that focuses on shadow work if she didn't believe that the individual has to take responsibility for their own reactions and behaviours.

            Joanna DeVoe talks now and then about the importance of ones formative years in developing their personality and the paradigms by which they process reality. Myss is saying that it is during these formative years that the base chakra develops and as you are an innocent child, a blank canvas dependant upon your immediate family at that age, then I have to agree with Caroline that the events that shape you at that stage of your life are NOT your fault or under your control. However, doing the legwork and growing from that, changing what needs to be changed as an adult, very much IS under your control.

            It seems to me that this final point is where most people fall flat. It is so much easier to blame anyone but yourself. Horrific things happen to some of us, and sure, at the time you were the helpless victim. But as Myss herself points out, by refusing to take responsibility for how you react to that trauma, you forever give up your power and remain in that victim mind-set. Maybe I'm missing something, or filtering the information differently, but that's how I've understood her message so far.
            夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

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            • #21
              Re: Caroline Myss

              Makes sense the hands would be connected to the heart. I always heard you push with the right and pull with the left to move the blood around. It reflects the movement of the energy through the heart, which I think also matches movement of the blood through the body. But been a while since I though about that one.

              As I read I've noticed that she covers a lot of the same stuff but how she puts it together is a bit different. She seem's to be putting Chakra 1 & 2 outside the body, that's how it reads to me anyway. As such it's all external influences and stimulus acting upon things. So the person has little to no accountability for what is happening to them and is pretty well at the mercy of things. Yet at chakra 3 things are being pulled inwards and the person is now evaluating things and taking control over and determination / accountability over their actions and reactions. Pretty much the individual and the internal struggle & self recognition and identification.

              Just a quick post will expound later.
              I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Caroline Myss

                Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
                Makes sense the hands would be connected to the heart. I always heard you push with the right and pull with the left to move the blood around. It reflects the movement of the energy through the heart, which I think also matches movement of the blood through the body. But been a while since I though about that one.

                As I read I've noticed that she covers a lot of the same stuff but how she puts it together is a bit different. She seem's to be putting Chakra 1 & 2 outside the body, that's how it reads to me anyway. As such it's all external influences and stimulus acting upon things. So the person has little to no accountability for what is happening to them and is pretty well at the mercy of things. Yet at chakra 3 things are being pulled inwards and the person is now evaluating things and taking control over and determination / accountability over their actions and reactions. Pretty much the individual and the internal struggle & self recognition and identification.

                Just a quick post will expound later.
                I'm quite far behind now I'm afraid. Still just reading through the 2nd chakra because I'm also reading Hal Elrod's book! I haven't heard it explained that way but I guess it would make sense.

                I think I posted a blog about my thoughts on the chakras and how they relate to the Cauldrons of Poesy. At that time, I had come to group the lower 3 chakras and upper 3 together, with the heart chakra being the pivotal point in the system (in fact, the way I work magic is built around this concept). I'm interested to see how Caroline's system matches up with my own, if at all.

                So much learning!
                夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

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