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    #31
    Originally posted by Medusa View Post
    But is that a moral or an ingrained trait to not eff up the propagation of the species.
    This was my point
    ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic

    RIP

    I have never been across the way
    Seen the desert and the birds
    You cut your hair short
    Like a shush to an insult
    The world had been yelling
    Since the day you were born
    Revolting with anger
    While it smiled like it was cute
    That everything was shit.

    - J. Wylder

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      #32
      Re: Atheists and morality

      Awesome reply, thal! Thanks for that

      Originally posted by thalassa View Post
      For morality to exist independently of human knowledge and perception, they have to come from somewhere other than human minds, individually or collectively. For someone that is explicitly theistic, that would likely be god or gods. Which is fine, but then you need to demonstrate that god or gods exist as something outside of the human mind objectively and without logical fallacy.
      This is what I was hinting at before, or at least that's how I understood objective morality.
      [4:82]

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        #33
        Re: Atheists and morality

        Originally posted by Medusa View Post
        Are morals maybe just the things we are ingrained to do or not do to keep our species alive?
        Are morals a biological imperative?

        Perhaps some of them (individually) are.

        For morality as a whole...I'd say its likely and that the reason there is so much variety between systems of morality and individual morals that do not overlap is a combination of cultural evolution and cultural adaptation (the anthropological term, not the common term for cultural adjustment)
        Last edited by thalassa; 18 Mar 2017, 18:59.
        Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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          #34
          Re: Atheists and morality

          Originally posted by thalassa View Post
          For morality to exist independently of human knowledge and perception, they have to come from somewhere other than human minds, individually or collectively. For someone that is explicitly theistic, that would likely be god or gods. Which is fine, but then you need to demonstrate that god or gods exist as something outside of the human mind objectively and without logical fallacy.
          And then just for fun, you get the arguments of whether the existing deities should actually be heeded for any reason other than a burning desire to avoid targeted lightning, random city destruction, various sentences of hellfire, etc...

          At the end of the day, there are any number of interpretations of the LoH (because he's a well known and easy target but I could pound on others if I were in the mood) that are really not anything I would call good. If there were a god that happened to be a fan of uncondition election then I'm gonna be really sympathetic to the devil.
          life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

          Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

          "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

          John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

          "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

          Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


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            #35
            Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post

            And then just for fun, you get the arguments of whether the existing deities should actually be heeded for any reason other than a burning desire to avoid targeted lightning, random city destruction, various sentences of hellfire, etc...

            At the end of the day, there are any number of interpretations of the LoH (because he's a well known and easy target but I could pound on others if I were in the mood) that are really not anything I would call good. If there were a god that happened to be a fan of uncondition election then I'm gonna be really sympathetic to the devil.
            Avoiding punishment is humanities #1 reason for their actions I reckon.
            ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic

            RIP

            I have never been across the way
            Seen the desert and the birds
            You cut your hair short
            Like a shush to an insult
            The world had been yelling
            Since the day you were born
            Revolting with anger
            While it smiled like it was cute
            That everything was shit.

            - J. Wylder

            Comment


              #36
              Re: Atheists and morality

              Originally posted by Heka View Post
              Avoiding punishment is humanities #1 reason for their actions I reckon.
              I don't know...

              I said earlier that I'm a fan of civil disobedience when a law is clearly bad. Even if I believed in a god I would be willing to refuse bad law from the mouth-of-god, and suffer the punishment.

              I know I'm not alone in this.

              The other reason for doing/not doing something is that it's the right choice.
              Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                #37
                Re: Atheists and morality

                It does happen that the law and the right thing are sometimes very opposite.
                MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




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                  #38
                  Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post

                  I don't know...

                  I said earlier that I'm a fan of civil disobedience when a law is clearly bad. Even if I believed in a god I would be willing to refuse bad law from the mouth-of-god, and suffer the punishment.

                  I know I'm not alone in this.

                  The other reason for doing/not doing something is that it's the right choice.
                  Yeah but that's cos we're intelligent enough to know that said law is stupid, and equally intelligent enough to either not get caught or have a decent defence.
                  ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic

                  RIP

                  I have never been across the way
                  Seen the desert and the birds
                  You cut your hair short
                  Like a shush to an insult
                  The world had been yelling
                  Since the day you were born
                  Revolting with anger
                  While it smiled like it was cute
                  That everything was shit.

                  - J. Wylder

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Re: Atheists and morality

                    If I might derail the thread for just one moment...

                    OP started this dicussion by citing Conservapedia. Conservapedia underwent a project to remove liberal bias from THE BIBLE. They have such a rigid view of morality that even the Big Man himself can't stack up.

                    Now back to the topic at hand...

                    While there are no objective set of rules followed by every culture, nearly all of them have some variant of the "golden rule", and most value empathy at least to some degree. And because humans are a social, co-operative species, empathy is an innate biological process that makes cooperation possible and relatively balanced. Anything beyond that can also be explained without a god, as it is stems from a need to not be kicked out of the tribe.

                    Civil disobedience is a hit-or-miss thing. How it's viewed depends on your culture, and history. Rosa Parks? She lived in an individualistic society, and the aftermath of the Civil Rights movement shines in her favor. If you're from a society that values obeying authority (even when it's stupid), and your cause loses in the end, you're just a troublemaker who disrespects your group.

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                      #40
                      Re: Atheists and morality

                      I believe having a belief system is a must for moral guidance. Doesn't mean it has to be a religion, but everybody needs something to believe in and be moral for.

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                        #41
                        Re: Atheists and morality

                        Atheists got morals. Everybody does.

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                          #42
                          Re: Atheists and morality

                          Not everyone has morals BMH,if that were the case,the jails would be empty.
                          MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                          all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                          NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                          don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




                          sigpic

                          my new page here,let me know what you think.


                          nothing but the shadow of what was

                          witchvox
                          http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Re: Atheists and morality

                            Originally posted by anunitu View Post
                            Not everyone has morals BMH,if that were the case,the jails would be empty.
                            I'd have to disagree, morality doesn't equal lawfulness.

                            Check out my blog! The Daily Satanist

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                              #44
                              Re: Atheists and morality

                              Originally posted by anunitu View Post
                              Not everyone has morals BMH,if that were the case,the jails would be empty.
                              Have to agree with SeanRave. Everyone has morals and ethics. The issue I think is that not all of us have the same accepted morals and ethics that are accepted by the greater social, cultural, heritage, legal, regional, etc influences.
                              I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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                                #45
                                Re: Atheists and morality

                                So,if I kill someone,but do not feel guilty do I have a moral sense? This might kick off another round of questions.
                                MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                                all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                                NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                                don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




                                sigpic

                                my new page here,let me know what you think.


                                nothing but the shadow of what was

                                witchvox
                                http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

                                Comment

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