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**DanieMarie** · 16 Jan 2011, 23:28

Re: Ethical Hedonism and Ethical Egoism

Just to directly talk about the questions first:

How far can we go in seeking pleasure before we are unethical? I think as long as you're not hurting anyone, you're good to go. I hate this whole "guilt" philosophy, that if it feels good it's somehow wrong. As long as you're not hurting anyone or yourself, I don't see what's wrong with the pursuit of pleasure.
Is the self (read: the ego) the most important thing we should foster in ourselves? No, but I think it IS something we should pay attention to and nurture.
Can one be a hedonist and still be charitable and kind or does one cease being a true hedonist when one reigns it back for decency or for kindness? I consider myself somewhat of a hedonist. I'm also generous and charitable. Just because you believe in pursuing pleasure doesn't mean that you can't care about others and helping them increase their comfort too.
Are all emotions and feelings ultimately related to self-preserverence? No...I think emotions are pretty irrational.
Is the drive to mate the most powerful driving force in our minds (the Freudian take)? It's pretty powerful, but no. The drive for comfort is much stronger.
Can sex bring us to enlightenment as much as or more so than spiritual practices such as meditation or prayer? I don't know....I've never had stellar sex. I think that I'm the kind of person that has to be in love to experience something like that, and I've never been in love. I think it's possible. We'll see.
Are Tantra, Kundalini and Taoist bedroom practices really about self-control or do you believe some of it is just about ecstatic pleasure? I've never really dabbled
Do you think it is a good thing to really love yourself? Absolutely. I didn't start getting over depression until I started learning to love myself.
Are all moral actions basically "hedging your bets" so that if you needed help in the future, the world would give it (Rand is somewhat on this line, not completely)? No. I do nice things but I don't do it to get something back later. I do it because I feel like that's just what I feel like doing.
Are we, ultimately, slaves to our genes and to biology no matter how much we don't want to be? I'm pretty much split on parts nature and nurture, so somewhat. But we still got to be born with cognitive abilities, so not completely. I hate that excuse of "I'm just a guy and we can't help it" to excuse cheating. You certainly can help it and lots of guys manage to not cheat.
If free will is non-existent (as some psyhologists might say) does that mean we really are just slaves to the ego and the needs of the flesh? I think we have free will.

I don't really see hedonism as just pursuing sex and stuff, but also enjoying great food, being surrounded by beauty and living for experiences that make you feel good (for me it's going to concerts, traveling and that sort of thing). I don't like the idea that it's an "immoral" thing to pursue those. It's all fine and good as long as you still think of other people and don't hurt anybody. It's certainly possible to pursue pleasure and still be an empathetic, caring, generous person.

**magusphredde** · 17 Jan 2011, 09:56

Re: Ethical Hedonism and Ethical Egoism

How far can we go in seeking pleasure before we are unethical?
Depends on social acceptance, our partner and our own moral standards ...

Is the self (read: the ego) the most important thing we should foster in ourselves?
Not "the most" ... But important none the less ...
Can one be a hedonist and still be charitable and kind or does one cease being a true hedonist when one reigns it back for decency or for kindness?

Yes ... No ...
Are all emotions and feelings ultimately related to self-preserverence?
Pretty much ...
Is the drive to mate the most powerful driving force in our minds (the Freudian take)?
Nope ... But a close second ...
Can sex bring us to enlightenment as much as or more so than spiritual practices such as meditation or prayer?
Nope ... But it sure is nice ...

Are Tantra, Kundalini and Taoist bedroom practices really about self-control or do you believe some of it is just about ecstatic pleasure?
Both ...
Do you think it is a good thing to really love yourself?
Yup ...
Are all moral actions basically "hedging your bets" so that if you needed help in the future, the world would give it (Rand is somewhat on this line, not completely)?
Depends on the person ...
Are we, ultimately, slaves to our genes and to biology no matter how much we don't want to be?
Nope ... But it is a driving factor ...

If free will is non-existent (as some psyhologists might say) does that mean we really are just slaves to the ego and the needs of the flesh?Might .. But I believe it does ...

**Tylluan Penry** · 17 Jan 2011, 10:43

Re: Ethical Hedonism and Ethical Egoism

How far can we go in seeking pleasure before we are unethical?
It really depends on what direction you happen to be travelling. If you're looking at inflicting pain say, because it gives pleasure, then you can't go very far at all without becoming unethical. If you get your pleasure by eating chocolate then it's quite possible to stuff your face...

Is the self (read: the ego) the most important thing we should foster in ourselves?
No, but it's considerably more important than many mainstream religions would have you think.

Can one be a hedonist and still be charitable and kind or does one cease being a true hedonist when one reigns it back for decency or for kindness?
Some people might get their pleasure from being decent and kind... so I suppose it's quite possible to be a hedonist and charitable. All depends what floats your boat in the first instance.

Are all emotions and feelings ultimately related to self-preserverence?
No... look at apathy. It's a feeling. But it's unlikely to have much bearing on self preservation. I think many emotions do relate to self preservation, not just all. Probably better not to generalise about it. IMHO.

Is the drive to mate the most powerful driving force in our minds (the Freudian take)?
For Valley Boys - yes. My mother always warned me about them

Then I married one....
Can't speak for other areas....

Can sex bring us to enlightenment as much as or more so than spiritual practices such as meditation or prayer?
Sex performed with the intention of obtaining enlightenment is a very powerful thing. Just not much fun.

Are Tantra, Kundalini and Taoist bedroom practices really about self-control or do you believe some of it is just about ecstatic pleasure?
Well, I'm all in favour of ecstatic pleasure...

But as I don't know much about the above named practices, I couldn't really comment (at least, not so that it would make any sense...)

Do you think it is a good thing to really love yourself?
Yes, providing that you are realistic. It's not a bad thing to love yourself - after all self loathing is a dreadful, corrosive thing. However, loving yourself and being blind to your own shortcomings is just vanity in my opinion. I have loads of faults and weaknesses, but I love myself in spite of knowing these because I've always done my best. And I don't ask more of myself - or others - than this.

Are all moral actions basically "hedging your bets" so that if you needed help in the future, the world would give it (Rand is somewhat on this line, not completely)?
For some people the answer could be yes. For me it's no. I don't believe that the world keeps a profit and loss account. Sometimes we give and give and get very little in return. When I give, I give. And I recognise that I might never get anythying back.

Are we, ultimately, slaves to our genes and to biology no matter how much we don't want to be?
Not in my opinion. I think many things influence what we become, otherwise siblings would be more similar than they are.

If free will is non-existent (as some psyhologists might say) does that mean we really are just slaves to the ego and the needs of the flesh?
I've always believe in free will. So no.

There we are - did my best to answer!

**Witcher** · 17 Jan 2011, 17:45

Re: Ethical Hedonism and Ethical Egoism

I like the answers from everyone.

I guess I am undecided on a lot of it. I'm not sure about how far I think we can go in seeking pleasure before we've crossed a line...still contemplating that one.

**KashakuTatsu** · 17 Jan 2011, 17:48

Re: Ethical Hedonism and Ethical Egoism

How far can we go in seeking pleasure before we are unethical?
This is a very subjective question. Who's ethics are we talking about? A lot of what I would consider within the realm of ethics for me (read: my lack there of) would be unethical for others. Bout the only thing unethical for me in pleasure seeking would be going after someone who is or was with someone close to me, friend or family.... all else is game.

Is the self (read: the ego) the most important thing we should foster in ourselves?
I think the Id is the most important, the ego would fall into line when the Id is satiated.

Can one be a hedonist and still be charitable and kind or does one cease being a true hedonist when one reigns it back for decency or for kindness?
Some get pleasure from helping others, some get pleasure from helping others to get one up on others (aka a favor to call in later). Again this would fall unto the person in question.

Are all emotions and feelings ultimately related to self-preserverence?
I believe so yes

Is the drive to mate the most powerful driving force in our minds (the Freudian take)?
Personally I'd say no

Can sex bring us to enlightenment as much as or more so than spiritual practices such as meditation or prayer?
Yes it can, I've had quite a few enlightenments during sexual encounters, especially while tranced.

Are Tantra, Kundalini and Taoist bedroom practices really about self-control or do you believe some of it is just about ecstatic pleasure?
Haven't tried them yet.

Do you think it is a good thing to really love yourself?
Most definitely

Are all moral actions basically "hedging your bets" so that if you needed help in the future, the world would give it (Rand is somewhat on this line, not completely)?
I go with what feels good, if I feel off about something (read most moral ideals) I don't do them even if it'd give me a +1 for help from a deity later.

Are we, ultimately, slaves to our genes and to biology no matter how much we don't want to be?
Yes

If free will is non-existent (as some psyhologists might say) does that mean we really are just slaves to the ego and the needs of the flesh?
We would be slaves to the Id, it's the driving instinctual part of us, the ego is just the part trying to balance morality and instinct.

**B. de Corbin** · 18 Jan 2011, 07:37

Re: Ethical Hedonism and Ethical Egoism

How far can we go in seeking pleasure before we are unethical?

Don't hurt, coerce, or trick people. All else is fair game.

Is the self (read: the ego) the most important thing we should foster in ourselves?

What else is there? If it weren't for the fact that I exist and have an ego, nothing would matter. Unless you are being compelled to do something against your will, all choices are based on desire, which is ego driven - I might, for example, choose to be a Catholic, and accept all the limitations which Catholics impose on hemselves, but it would still be something which I (my ego) has chosen.

Can one be a hedonist and still be charitable and kind or does one cease being a true hedonist when one reigns it back for decency or for kindness?

If hedonism means pleasure seeking, then sure - as Tylluan points out, being a decent person may (and frequently does) give pleasure.

Are all emotions and feelings ultimately related to self-preserverence?

Yes. "Emotions" and "feelings" is the name we give to instinct when we feel it in ourselves, or recognize it in others of our own species.

Is the drive to mate the most powerful driving force in our minds (the Freudian take)?

No. Survival comes first, then mating. A guy who is starving to death is going to jump at a ham sandwhich before he jumps at a chance for nookie.

Can sex bring us to enlightenment as much as or more so than spiritual practices such as meditation or prayer?

Maybe, but not easily. Everybody I know who tries this ends up getting distracted by the pleasure, and ends up worse off than they were when they started.

Are Tantra, Kundalini and Taoist bedroom practices really about self-control or do you believe some of it is just about ecstatic pleasure?

When done correctly, there isn't that much pleasue. A quick romp is he hay is much more fun.

Do you think it is a good thing to really love yourself?

If you don't love yourself first, you can't love anybody else. Sure, you can get all pukey infatuated, but that's not love... that's just disgusting.

Are all moral actions basically "hedging your bets" so that if you needed help in the future, the world would give it (Rand is somewhat on this line, not completely)?

Nope - games are more fun to play when you adhere to certain rules. The morals you accept are the rules, and life is the game.

Are we, ultimately, slaves to our genes and to biology no matter how much we don't want to be?

Yes. I can't fly by my own power like a bird or a bumble bee because my morphology - which is determined by my genes, doesn't allow it. However, human genes allow for a wide range of behaviors, and even produce a wide range of conflicting desires - we are all free to choose which ones we manifest, and which ones we don't.

If free will is non-existent (as some psyhologists might say) does that mean we really are just slaves to the ego and the needs of the flesh?

Free will exists, but it isn't always a product of the conscious mind. Something chooses - Nietzsche called it "the will," and it operates before the "ego" does. We do, consciously (and this has also been proven) have veto power over any choice that we may be compelled to make. If that isn't free will, I don't know what is...

**Ophidia** · 18 Jan 2011, 10:18

Re: Ethical Hedonism and Ethical Egoism

How far can we go in seeking pleasure before we are unethical?

I'd find it unethical to deliberately harm someone for my own pleasure (no matter how entertaining it is to push people into traffic or start fights between co-workers). However, I do end up harming some things just to stay alive, so I find it hard to separate pleasure from necessity on this one. It's quite pleasurable to eat, but I don't think I should stop eating because it's unethical to harm things for my own pleasure. It's not my fault that animals and plants are so darned tasty.

Is the self (read: the ego) the most important thing we should foster in ourselves?

What else are we going to foster in ourselves? An alien lifeform? Everything a person learns and experiences goes toward developing the self.

Can one be a hedonist and still be charitable and kind or does one cease being a true hedonist when one reigns it back for decency or for kindness?

Apparently, being a decent human being and being kind brings some people pleasure, so I don't see how this would interfere with being a hedonist. I think there's a line between good-natured hedonism and extremism. You can be hedonistic, wanting a leisurely life of enjoyment, without taking it to the extremes of Charlie Sheen.

Are all emotions and feelings ultimately related to self-preserveration?

I don't think so. I'm not sure what purpose guilt serves. Maybe in a multi-generational household or a tight-knit community it's useful in some way, but I haven't figured it out. Jealousy is pretty self-destructive, too.

Is the drive to mate the most powerful driving force in our minds (the Freudian take)?

Not for everyone. I've been meeting more & more asexual-identified people, and they have other driving needs. Some people want companionship more than sex, others want food or fame.

Can sex bring us to enlightenment as much as or more so than spiritual practices such as meditation or prayer?

Really good, mind-blowing sex is a method for attaining altered states of consciousness, so it is at least as effective as other ritual and spiritual methods.

Are Tantra, Kundalini and Taoist bedroom practices really about self-control or do you believe some of it is just about ecstatic pleasure?

Tantra and Kundalini are more than just sexual practices, but most people only reach so far. Tantra is an incredible way to gain more self-control and discipline. Sex is so familiar and comfortable that it's natural for people to want to get a little more out of it than just an orgasm. Other people just want orgasms, so they dress casual sex up in fancy words to use as pick-up lines to get laid. From my experiences, it worked really well in the 80s.

Do you think it is a good thing to really love yourself?

Yup. You're the only one who is going to truly love you unconditionally, with all your flaws and imperfections and neuroses. You can't depend on other people for the high-test stuff, you've got to produce it yourself.

Are all moral actions basically "hedging your bets" so that if you needed help in the future, the world would give it (Rand is somewhat on this line, not completely)?

All good deeds I do, I do in the name of karma. I always have ulterior motives to my good deeds (as opposed to my bad deeds, which I mostly do for the lulz). I usually assume someone wants something from me when they do something nice, and it makes me paranoid when they insist otherwise. I know at some point, they're going to call in the favor and it's going to be horribly inconvenient for me. I try to stop people from doing me favors because I try my best to live a debt-free life.

Are we, ultimately, slaves to our genes and to biology no matter how much we don't want to be?
If free will is non-existent (as some psychologists might say) does that mean we really are just slaves to the ego and the needs of the flesh?

Nope, we're mostly victims of our genes. We get 'em whether we want 'em or not, and we're stuck with 'em. Some people win the genetic lottery, others don't. I got my mother's height (5&#039

& my father's family's build (like frikkin' Valkyries). So I'm short and fat. Thanks for getting it on, mom & dad. Your biology experiment failed.

Free will can always overcomes the bodily instinct. For every Jim Morrison or Aleister Crowley out there, there are thousands of every-day Joes going to work at unsatisfying jobs, living unsatisfying lives and eating unsatisfying foods. From the number of people out there putting themselves through hell to make a buck it must feel really good, because it's unnatural to desire painful, unsatisfying and uncomfortable experiences. Our brains are loaded with receptors for things like endorphins, dopamine, opioids, cannabinoids, our taste buds respond favorably to sweet foods and drinks, our eyes seek out that which is restful and pleasing, we inhale good scents deeply and with gusto. But every day we surround ourselves with glaring monitors and flickering fluorescent lights, blaring horns, itchy suits, bland tasteless conveyor-belt foods and harsh chemicals. A lot of people tell themselves they are doing these things 'against their wills', but it's really themselves actively willing to put themselves through these experiences. Of course, somehow we try to balance out all that misery for the promise of future pleasure - ahhh, retirement, when we'll have all the free time in the world to pursue our happiness. When we're too old, sick and tired to enjoy it.

[quote author=frankophonic link=topic=1425.msg29256#msg29256 date=1295247249]
Vodou and other Afro-Caribbean systems stress the ecstatic experience and many of the lwa are overtly sexual when possession comes to the devotee (Baron Samedi and the Ghede come to mind, as does Erzulia Freda).
[/quote]

I had to step in on this. The Guedde are very bawdy and rowdy, but when in possession of an adherent, they do not engage in sexual intercourse. The Guedde use sexual jokes, innuendos and gestures because they can - they're dead, so social mores don't apply to them anymore. No one can tell them to 'behave' or 'be nice' because they're beyond the rules of civilized etiquette. The presence of death, with all its trappings and finery, makes people fearful and pushes them out of their comfort zones. If you belong to a culture where death, although commonplace, has so many taboos and prohibitions and cultural restrictions circling around it, and there's a dead guy (or dead gal) in the room who is blatantly flirting with you, it's really going to push you completely out of your comfort zone and into another reality - which is what ritual space and time is all about, be it Vodou, the Wiccan magical circle or Catholic Mass. The Guedde aren't just sexual, they also air dirty laundry and spill secrets like rum. In a practical sense, when someone is possessed by the Guedde, they are also freed from all those heavy social & cultural restraints, and the horse can let their hair down & have fun - or tell off an overbearing boss or relative - even if they don't remember what was done or said & other people have to relay the Guedde's antics back to them.

Erzulie Freda (really, Erzulie in all her forms or paths) is intensely passionate and physical, and her children are often prostitutes and members of the LGBT community. Vodou doesn't condone promiscuity, but prostitution is often the only way some women and men can make a living wage. It's a profession many people turn to because they are desperate. It's good to have a spirit looking out for you and offering you compassion and protection when you live a life that may be horribly lonely (moreso in the modern age when western and Christian/Catholic views on prostitution alienate sex workers from their communities) and frequently dangerous. Erzulie loves to love and be loved, and she will flirt and dance her way around any ritual, but she's not a 'whore' or 'slut', and she'd be mighty wrathful towards anyone who implied that about her. She affirms that women can be sexually powerful but still be good people.

**FantasyWitch** · 18 Jan 2011, 11:12

Re: Ethical Hedonism and Ethical Egoism

How far can we go in seeking pleasure before we are unethical?
Depends on the circumstances, on what you deem as unethical and whither we are talking about being unethical or selfish, whivch are two different things.

Is the self (read: the ego) the most important thing we should foster in ourselves?
No.

Can one be a hedonist and still be charitable and kind or does one cease being a true hedonist when one reigns it back for decency or for kindness?
No. Actually if you look at Jeremy Bentham he states that to find true happiness of the largest amount of people some laws must be set into place and not be broken, otherwise we become more like animals and dismiss our natural evolution from that state.
(You actually didn't mention Utilitarianism at all in your topic opening. I was surprised you didn't.)

Are all emotions and feelings ultimately related to self-preserverence?
Mostly. I feel some emotions can be ignored for the sake of others. You CAN bury certain things or ignore certain things for the good of others. Mothers do it all the time.

Is the drive to mate the most powerful driving force in our minds (the Freudian take)?
Some people don't like to "mate" at all. So I'd have to say no. Although I think it is a very big deal in our psyche

Can sex bring us to enlightenment as much as or more so than spiritual practices such as meditation or prayer?
You never know.

Are Tantra, Kundalini and Taoist bedroom practices really about self-control or do you believe some of it is just about ecstatic pleasure?
Both.

Do you think it is a good thing to really love yourself?
In every way yes.

Are all moral actions basically "hedging your bets" so that if you needed help in the future, the world would give it (Rand is somewhat on this line, not completely)?
What in a Karmic sense? I'd say no. But I don't believe there is ever such a thing as a self-less act.

Are we, ultimately, slaves to our genes and to biology no matter how much we don't want to be?
No, we choose to change. We have reached a point where our evolution is more up to us than natural force. Maybe I am bigging up humanity too much but hey, seems like a sensible point to me.

If free will is non-existent (as some psyhologists might say) does that mean we really are just slaves to the ego and the needs of the flesh?
"If" then yes.

**Witcher** · 18 Jan 2011, 21:31

Re: Ethical Hedonism and Ethical Egoism

I love everyone answering, but I really put the questions up just kind of for conversation starters and not as a survey, sorry I was a bit vague. I guess what really interests me is ethics in all this. How far can I go before I am being unethical when seeking pleasure? The lines are so blurry somtimes. One of the best examples is the S&M community for example. I have friends in this community and talking with them brings up a lot of ethical questions. Most modern members of the S&M community are obsessed with consensuality and rights of the practitioners. They have safe words, pre-set limits, etc. Many of them even have written contracts with their doms or subs. I guess what interests me though is that even with all this precaution, at the end of the day, there is someone who finds great pleasure in inflicting pain and torture on another being for kicks. Even if it is regulated, does that change the emotion behind it? The love of hurting another? That is the definition of sadism. A masochist loves to be hurt and have pain inflicted on himself or herself. But that does really change the fact that there is something a bit unethical (maybe, I'm not saying I think there is per se) about a person inflicting pain, wanted or not, because they love doing it? Is that a line?

**Bjorn** · 19 Jan 2011, 00:42

Re: Ethical Hedonism and Ethical Egoism

How far can we go in seeking pleasure before we are unethical?
Obviously, the answer must be 'stop when your pleasure seeking interferes with other people's lives, unwanted.' I think however, that unethical is the wrong word to use. I ask instead "how much can one pursue pleasure before the other parts of the spirit start to become neglected?" Nobody else has the right to determine what is enough pleasure for you but YOU, unless your pursuit of it is leading to harm. In which case, I don't think harming one's self is really unethical, just stupid.

Is the self (read: the ego) the most important thing we should foster in ourselves?
Personally? I think no. The reason there is more is why we NEED the ego. I think that for the majority of us, there is a mystical life that we must lead within to be fulfilled and that without that, that feeling of awe, that we as humans are incomplete. Without all, there can be no strong ego to keep yourself in check.

Can one be a hedonist and still be charitable and kind or does one cease being a true hedonist when one reigns it back for decency or for kindness?
To me, a hedonist is pretty straight-forward: someone who is driven by wanting to feel good. I think you can absolutely be charitable and kind. Hedonism is a selfish practice, yes, but it doesn't label one exclusively as selfish.

Are all emotions and feelings ultimately related to self-preserverence?
Well isn't that the way of things? Without that part of your brain telling you to DO something with all that floating around in your head then you've just got a pile of memories and dreams for the future. Growing and maturing is the only way to survive - self perseverance is nothing more than doing what it takes to survive.

Is the drive to mate the most powerful driving force in our minds (the Freudian take)?
No, its just the loudest and most noticeable. It can be powerful but it is also easily dealt with, at least for me.

Can sex bring us to enlightenment as much as or more so than spiritual practices such as meditation or prayer?
I personally have never had such mind-blowing sex, but if its out there I would certainly love to have it.

Are Tantra, Kundalini and Taoist bedroom practices really about self-control or do you believe some of it is just about ecstatic pleasure?
If there were other ways they'd decided to test their self-control then I'd buy it and they could add that too their "Self Control Resume." But if they just sit around and play with each other slowly all day, then I'm leaning towards the 'ecstatic pleasure' vibe.

Do you think it is a good thing to really love yourself?
A good thing? That doesn't even describe it - loving yourself is everything, because its hard to do. Everyone knows deep down how much of an asshole they are and how dark their darkest thoughts are. Loving yourself in spite of those thoughts instead of trying to pretend they don't exist is much more powerful. Love for the self led me to want to constantly improve myself, which I think is a good path to be on.

Are all moral actions basically "hedging your bets" so that if you needed help in the future, the world would give it (Rand is somewhat on this line, not completely)?
Sounds like karma, which I have mixed feelings about. So I am currently undecided on this one.

Are we, ultimately, slaves to our genes and to biology no matter how much we don't want to be?
I would like to say no, but I live with my cousin who is a very unfortunate copy of his loser father. I don't think we are all destined to be slaves to our genes but they can play a very strong role. Each generation of change in a family's tendency is like a pick on ice - cracking it to show the break but it takes a while to crack through it.

If free will is non-existent (as some psyhologists might say) does that mean we really are just slaves to the ego and the needs of the flesh?
Well, if free-will is non-existent then that's EXACTLY what that means. That is why I don't believe in an absence of free will - then nobody is accountable for anything.

**B. de Corbin** · 19 Jan 2011, 03:11

Re: Ethical Hedonism and Ethical Egoism

[quote author=frankophonic link=topic=1425.msg29631#msg29631 date=1295415080]
...But that does really change the fact that there is something a bit unethical (maybe, I'm not saying I think there is per se) about a person inflicting pain, wanted or not, because they love doing it? Is that a line?
[/quote]

Well, "ethical" has to do with the idea ofwhether a thing is in accordance with accepted ideas of right or wrong within a group or profession. So when you talk about S & M people, the desire to inflict pain, and feeling pleasure at doing it really has nothing to do with ethics. When you talk about contracts, setting limits, etc., you are talking about ethics - within that group, violating that agreement would be a breach of ethics.

Outside of that group, the desire to inflict pain would only be unethical if the person asking the question considers it wrong to feel a desire to do certain things.

Since I can not control what I feel, or the desires that arise within me, I (personally) wouldn't call any urge or desire unethical. However, since I can control what I do, I can determine that certain actions are unethical (for me). I don't enjoy causing pain, so the who idea of S & M goes over my head, and, consequently, I don't spend any time considering the ethics of it.

I can, however, imagine myself causing pain (of some sort) in order to gain something, so I can think about the ethics of that. Doing so would be unethical for me - because I don't want to gain anything by taking unfair advantage of others. It's much more interesting (for me) to compete on a level playing field.

I suppose that, if both parties are willing, and both parties know the consequences of their actions, there is nothing ethically wrong with S & M. I don't get it - but I don't need to because I'm not involved. Even by my own ethical standards, a mutual agreement to engage in certain activities (as long as they do not violate the ethics of the larger community in which I live, such as murder or chopping off limbs) isn't unethical.

**Monk** · 19 Jan 2011, 08:48

Re: Ethical Hedonism and Ethical Egoism

[quote author=B. de Corbin link=topic=1425.msg29659#msg29659 date=1295435499]

I suppose that, if both parties are willing, and both parties know the consequences of their actions, there is nothing ethically wrong with S & M. I don't get it - but I don't need to because I'm not involved. Even by my own ethical standards, a mutual agreement to engage in certain activities (as long as they do not violate the ethics of the larger community in which I live, such as murder or chopping off limbs) isn't unethical.
[/quote]

Knowing several people into S & M and having talked with them about it. The person inflicting the pain (at least in their case) enjoys doing it because their partners sexual experience is so much more heightened by being tied up,or restrained and whipped. The extent of the beating, duration as well as the degree of pain inflicted has to be closely monitored by the partner administrating the whipping, clamping, etc.
I have to admit I don't know anyone personally who enjoys inflicting pain just to inflict it.

**Ophidia** · 19 Jan 2011, 17:14

Re: Ethical Hedonism and Ethical Egoism

[quote author=frankophonic link=topic=1425.msg29631#msg29631 date=1295415080]
I guess what interests me though is that even with all this precaution, at the end of the day, there is someone who finds great pleasure in inflicting pain and torture on another being for kicks. Even if it is regulated, does that change the emotion behind it? The love of hurting another? That is the definition of sadism. A masochist loves to be hurt and have pain inflicted on himself or herself. But that does really change the fact that there is something a bit unethical (maybe, I'm not saying I think there is per se) about a person inflicting pain, wanted or not, because they love doing it? Is that a line?
[/quote]

I'm a submissive, and when I enter into a relationship with a dominant, I'm placing a lot of trust on that person to draw some very bold lines between inflicting pain for their enjoyment and my sexual pleasure and just hurting (or killing) me for fun. I've been lucky, I suppose, that I've never ended up with someone who didn't know how to draw those lines. In some of the scenes and people I've been with, there are always rumors of 'So-and-So' who is a 'bad dom', who can't separate BDSM play from flat-out torture. It's kind of funny, but sometimes I wonder if these 'bad doms' actually exist - I've heard about them, other people have heard about them... but in a way it could be an urban legend unique to the BDSM communities, kind of like some boogeyman, a way to make the subs a little more cautious about how they enter into relationships and put themselves at the complete mercy of someone who has them tied up and cut off from communication with the outside world, and even maybe scaring the doms a little, telling them that they do have to have a lot of self-control and will-power.

The truth of the matter is that the BDSM scene does have rules, and with the strong emphasis on explicit consent and safety, it's very hard to envision the relationships and activities within the scene as being unethical. Yes, some things might cross the line society-wise, like parading your partner in public while making them wear skimpy clothing and a leash, but the sub is consenting to the request of the dom to do so, not being forced into it at gunpoint. The dom just has to remember that no may no mean no, but banana does.

**Witcher** · 19 Jan 2011, 17:50

Re: Ethical Hedonism and Ethical Egoism

[quote author=perzephone link=topic=1425.msg29763#msg29763 date=1295486079]
I'm a submissive, and when I enter into a relationship with a dominant, I'm placing a lot of trust on that person to draw some very bold lines between inflicting pain for their enjoyment and my sexual pleasure and just hurting (or killing) me for fun. I've been lucky, I suppose, that I've never ended up with someone who didn't know how to draw those lines. In some of the scenes and people I've been with, there are always rumors of 'So-and-So' who is a 'bad dom', who can't separate BDSM play from flat-out torture. It's kind of funny, but sometimes I wonder if these 'bad doms' actually exist - I've heard about them, other people have heard about them... but in a way it could be an urban legend unique to the BDSM communities, kind of like some boogeyman, a way to make the subs a little more cautious about how they enter into relationships and put themselves at the complete mercy of someone who has them tied up and cut off from communication with the outside world, and even maybe scaring the doms a little, telling them that they do have to have a lot of self-control and will-power.

The truth of the matter is that the BDSM scene does have rules, and with the strong emphasis on explicit consent and safety, it's very hard to envision the relationships and activities within the scene as being unethical. Yes, some things might cross the line society-wise, like parading your partner in public while making them wear skimpy clothing and a leash, but the sub is consenting to the request of the dom to do so, not being forced into it at gunpoint. The dom just has to remember that no may no mean no, but banana does.
[/quote]

That makes it a lot clearer. Thanks. And as to the last sentence: lmao. :P

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Ethical Hedonism and Ethical Egoism

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