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Thread: It ain't about cakes no more...

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    The Gaze of the Abyss B. de Corbin's Avatar
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    It ain't about cakes no more...

    Alright...

    I have some reservations about forcing people engaged in artistic endeavors to do work related to situations they disagree with - the example that comes to mind is baking a cake for a gay wedding.

    And, if people are going to be honest, I bet they can understand where I'm coming from. After all, I didn't see anybody weeping and crying about all the performers who refused to perform a tRumps inauguration. They didn't want to be associated with tRump. I get that.

    I also see that there is a problem with allowing people to opt out of equal treatment for all based on deeply held beliefs.

    Case in point - Racist Bullying? Religious School In Texas Argues Courts Can’t Intervene:
    A religious school is being sued after it punished alleged racist harassers with one-day suspensions.


    From the article:

    Now, in a move that’s raised eyebrows among lawyers and legal experts, the school is trying to get the lawsuit dismissed by invoking the ecclesiastical abstention doctrine.

    This legal principle, also called the church autonomy doctrine, holds that religious institutions do not need to follow the same laws as non-religious entities, like public schools, if it conflicts with their religious doctrine.
    I see a problem that has at least two sides, BOTH of which can be abused.

    Is there a reasonable compromise? I dunno.
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    Re: It ain't about cakes no more...

    So this is a basic rule of thumb regarding how courts look at religion arguments. Let's examine the school's case with it.

    1) Is there a valid secular purpose in the law?
    Personally, I find ensuring that children are protected while at school to be a valid purpose.

    2) Does imposing basic standards of care for children on all schools equally have a primary effect of advancing or inhibiting religion?
    No. It has a primary effect of protecting children.

    3) Does compelling certain standards of care for children foster an excessive entanglement with religion?
    Nope. The religious body doesn't have to get in the education business and managing how they operate as a school does not require the government to interfere with them outside the conditions where they are operating as an educational institution.

    Of course, there's another option if they want to go this route. The country could stop certifying private schools period and enhance funding for public education...
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    Re: It ain't about cakes no more...


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    Re: It ain't about cakes no more...

    Good Thanks for discussion!

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    Re: It ain't about cakes no more...

    First off, someone saying I'm not going make you one of my beautiful cakes because your gay, is not the same as saying I won't perform my art for trump. Gay people are born gay and that can't be changed. Trump has picked his political views, and said what he said, he can change his mind anytime.

    Let me just preface my next few opinions by saying I'm gay and I am also a writer, so also an artist.

    I think artists are unique in that their art is free speech. What I mean is that what an artist chooses to create, or refuse to create, is their free speech. It's not like a restaurant refusing to serve an African American. What the baker is saying is that making me decorate this cake, for a gay marriage, violates my free speech. You are telling me I must express myself in this way, and it violates my free speech rights.

    Now having said this, I must admit that the baker is successful, and is in a situation where he can turn down business and survive. As a writer I took projects I didn't want to do. I worked with cowriters who took me to places in the story I didn't like. I didn't want to write some of the things I did. But, I learned a lot about myself doing it. I also learned a lot about antagonism, conflict, and being "lost in unmapped seas." In short it made me a much better writer.

    So. Is the cake maker within his rights to refuse? I think so. Is he really pushing himself to expand his artistic ability and possibly enrich his understanding of the world he purports to create art for? I think not.
    Last edited by pillar; 23 Apr 2018 at 12:54.

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    Live and learn anunitu's Avatar
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    Re: It ain't about cakes no more...

    It does strike me as strange that "A Religion" based on love thy neighbor from Christ,who I seem to remember loving everyone. If I were to follow such a belief it could not dismiss the rights and value of some others that have been oppressed over their lives.

    As they at times say,"what would JESUS DO?"

    - - - Updated - - -

    I do wonder if using their own written beliefs as a rebuttal is ok.

    I mention the "who is without sin,cast the first stone",and I wonder if some really understand who their belief is the foundation of.

    Just a thought.
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    Re: It ain't about cakes no more...

    So...Lemme ask...

    Is baking art?

    I mean, there might be artistry to it, but does that make it art?

    I work as an industrial hygienist (in UK English, they usually call it an occupational hygienist), which is defined as "an art and a science." And sure, while I do need some basic drawing skills for mapping and diagraming, I'm not making art...they really should use the word "craft" as in skill. And sure, some craftsmen are effing good and creating art, but not every patchwork crazy quilt or crocheted washcloth is art, right?

    Sure, wedding cakes can certainly be artistic and take a ton of skill to create, but are they art? Is every wedding cake then art? Is it the icing that does it? Is decorating art, or is it the making of the entire thing? Because bakers usually make other stuff too... Are biscuits art? Bagels?

    (Bagels are definitely art)

    But, I'd still consider baking (even decorating a wedding cake) a skill, a craft, something that *sometimes* requires artistry, but not necessarily art.

    I think saying *because art* is a dangerous step to take when we can't possible define art on anything other than a "know it when I see it" standard. Is art a good reason for bigotry?

    (I'm not being argumentative on purpose, this is more stream of consciousness thought processing)


    I think this is more of a priorities/values issue. I think the questions we should ask (when it comes to the interactions between people) are these, as a society--

    Which is more valuable: life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness?
    Which is more worthy of protection: an inherent characteristic or an acquired characteristic?
    Which is more vulnerable: people or ideas?
    Which is more likely to be damaged: an individual or a business?

    I don't think that the answer is the same in every situation, but in the case of bakers and gay wedding cakes, my reasoning is something like this:

    I almost always think that the order is life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I generally consider inherent characteristics to be an intrinsic part of one's life, and an acquired (and by acquired, I mean something that is voluntarily chosen) characteristic to be an aspect of liberty and/or happiness. I think that ideas are far more durable than people in most cases. And, in this particular instance, I think that the business is less likely to be damaged from making a gay wedding cake than the individual(s) being further discriminated against in a society that already discriminates against them for their intrinsic characteristic.

    A baker, in the function of making a wedding cake, is a business. Businesses might have owners that have religious values, but they do not have religions. Businesses are not religions. Businesses are not people. Businesses are legally obligated to follow the discrimination laws of the locations where they are located. Businesses do not get to claim an exemption for religious purposes. But beyond that, a business should absolutely be able to turn down business on the basis of inability to pay, being asked to do something that is illegal, because it would damage the business or the brand, etc.

    Unless the business is Fundie Christian Cakes Only, LLC, making a gay wedding cake is not brand-damaging. Performing for 45 on the other hand, for some artists, would definitely do damage to their 'brand.' I wouldn't require Gel Olsteen, Christ-Approved Magician to Christians to perform his magic Pray-hair tricks at a Pagan festival, anymore than a Pagan-owned BBQ joint should be able to tell potential Christian customers to burn in the pits of their own making...
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    Re: It ain't about cakes no more...

    Just bake the Nazi cake.
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    The Gaze of the Abyss B. de Corbin's Avatar
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    Re: It ain't about cakes no more...

    Quote Originally Posted by thalassa View Post
    So...Lemme ask...

    Is baking art?

    I mean, there might be artistry to it, but does that make it art?...
    LOL - ask five art historians, and you'll get five different answers, all of which will include "Well, in my opinion...") . Ask five artists, and you'll get five different answers, all of which will include "Well, in my opinion...").

    The only people who can actually answer that question are people who don't know enough to know that they don't know enough to answer that question (Dunning-Kruger Effect . Example: "Who knew health care was so complicated?")
    Last edited by B. de Corbin; 03 May 2018 at 07:13.
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    Re: It ain't about cakes no more...

    It was never about cakes in the first place. It was about hiding behind religion to legally protect your hate.

    Most small business reserve the right to refuse service to anyone at any time. If you exercise that right, it doesn't protect you from the right of free speech for the refused couple to tell others about your bigoted practices.
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