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    The Pagan View On Technocracy

    Technocracy can be defined as a system of rule where the most technically-qualified people get to lead the nation/world.

    We are so lucky (in our times) to see a real technocrat in action. As the current POTUS used this philosophy to pick his Cabinet members.

    Now, it is true that most of his picks did not work out, but we Pagans are here and ready to offer our condolences and our excuses: (a) perhaps the gods were not in favor, (b) or maybe the stars/planets were out of position during their selections, or (c) in the case of poor Rex Tillerson, the "Ides of March" probably got him!

    But no, I did not join this forum to discuss contemporary politics, but to raise concern about something more sinister on the horizon:

    What happens when the most technically-qualified entity around is an
    AI-powered machine?

    Should we Pagans bow down to our new computational overlords, or should we listen to the more unlearned of us who say, "It just doesn't feel right?"

    The discussion is open for whoever wants to contradict/comment. I will respond more after there are more replies.

    #2
    Re: The Pagan View On Technocracy

    The legitimacy of technocracy is based upon the precept of "I know what's better on a specific area, so I should have decision in that area". It is a precept that I fundamentally could agree with, but there issue is that technically better is not always practically better, and what's objectively practically better is usually very blurry, and depends on a myriad of factors that perhaps not even a skilled group in that area could discern. So as with many government forms (democracy included) technocracy is utopia.

    On the AI side of things, which is actually very interesting, I believe this Intelligence wouldn't be artificial, but real, yet synthetic. I prefer the term Synthetic Intelligence (S.I. from now on) for this kind of overpowered computers. For me a Synthetic Intelligence is no more an intelligence than a Natural one. However the functioning of this Intelligence could be much more mathematic, abstract, and therefore based on numbers, statistics, data. The result would be not very different from a bureaucratic society.

    I imagine the problem with Synthetic Intelligence governed society is reactivity and sudden changes. Radical situations require radical changes, but a Synthetic Intelligence could be reticent to do anything until sufficient data of the situation has been gathered, which could lead to a period of destruction caused by the radical situation, during the time enough data is gathered. Also a Synthetic Intelligence could be too eager to introduce new concepts and discoveries and force them into everyday life. For example, imagine this S.I. society where transportation is public and managed through a network of AI driven buses, cars, trains, whatever. Then all of a sudden teleportation is discovered and for the next 4 - 5 days the WHOLE transport infrastructure is dismantled and replaced with teleport stations. Kind of abrupt, isn't it? It's all speculation, but this is how I imagine it.

    Check out my blog! The Daily Satanist

    Comment


      #3
      Re: The Pagan View On Technocracy

      Originally posted by SeanRave View Post
      ... but there issue is that technically better is not always practically better, and what's objectively practically better is usually very blurry
      Couldn't agree more. Just because we can develop/create something doesn't mean we should always implement it in society.


      Originally posted by SeanRave View Post
      I imagine the problem with Synthetic Intelligence governed society is reactivity and sudden changes. Radical situations require radical changes, but a Synthetic Intelligence could be reticent to do anything until sufficient data of the situation has been gathered, which could lead to a period of destruction caused by the radical situation, during the time enough data is gathered. Also a Synthetic Intelligence could be too eager to introduce new concepts and discoveries and force them into everyday life. For example, imagine this S.I. society where transportation is public and managed through a network of AI driven buses, cars, trains, whatever. Then all of a sudden teleportation is discovered and for the next 4 - 5 days the WHOLE transport infrastructure is dismantled and replaced with teleport stations. Kind of abrupt, isn't it? It's all speculation, but this is how I imagine it.
      I like the idea of self-learning machines that would actually create some kind of a conscious on itself, but the way in which AI or SI could develop itself should be limited. There's something called the "three laws of robotics", which state that:
      1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
      2. A robot must obey orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
      3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

      People developing AI/SI should take responsibility to uphold these laws, because the chances of things going deadly wrong at the rate technology is growing are small, but present. I think there will definitely come times where things get out of control, but we humans always learn and overcome our issues. So whatever happens, we'll survive. I'm curious where the future is headed. It's exciting!

      Comment


        #4
        Re: The Pagan View On Technocracy

        Presuming medical technology stays static (it won't but I'm not in the mood to account for it), I expect to be dead before an AI exists that I think could be trusted to govern humans effectively. Government is a complicated issue with too many moving parts, too many inneficiencies (some of which are features rather than bugs) and too many variables in too many completely divergent fields. I'm sure that we'll be using AI for analysis in limited ways very soon if we aren't already but those uses are liable to remain pretty restricted for quite some time.
        life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

        Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

        "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

        John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

        "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

        Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


        Comment


          #5
          Re: The Pagan View On Technocracy

          Originally posted by WyvernWorship View Post
          ...but we Pagans are here and ready to offer our condolences and our excuses...
          Many of us "pagans" do not like being lumped onto a "we pagans" group without our permission.

          Probably a grammatical error, but do try to be careful of phrasing - do not appear to try to speak for those for whom you have no authority to speak.

          - - - Updated - - -

          Originally posted by WyvernWorship View Post
          Should we Pagans bow down to our new computational overlords, or should we listen to the more unlearned of us who say, "It just doesn't feel right?"
          Dude! Way to load a question!

          Fish for responses much?
          Last edited by B. de Corbin; 20 Aug 2018, 10:06.
          Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

          Comment


            #6
            Re: The Pagan View On Technocracy

            Originally posted by Eleanor View Post
            Couldn't agree more. Just because we can develop/create something doesn't mean we should always implement it in society.
            I think that horse has long bolted: whether we like it or not it's coming.


            Originally posted by Eleanor View Post
            I like the idea of self-learning machines that would actually create some kind of a conscious on itself, but the way in which AI or SI could develop itself should be limited. There's something called the "three laws of robotics", which state that:
            1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
            2. A robot must obey orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
            3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

            People developing AI/SI should take responsibility to uphold these laws, because the chances of things going deadly wrong at the rate technology is growing are small, but present. I think there will definitely come times where things get out of control, but we humans always learn and overcome our issues. So whatever happens, we'll survive. I'm curious where the future is headed. It's exciting!
            I agree we need to start coding for ethics and meaning in AI (for instance, i have a neuroscience colleague looking into AI music appreciation), but the 3 laws aren't it: or anything that tries to hard code an ethical system. If we can find ways to teach AI without hard coding it will be a far more natural process that should benefit both humanity (by being able to study an emergent ethical system), and hopefully to AI which will be able to explore the ethical aspect of it's being rather than have it dictated.

            And why couldn't some AIs adopt some form of Paganism (or any other 'spiritual' system) itself?

            Comment


              #7
              Re: The Pagan View On Technocracy

              I am against the three laws of robotics.

              First and foremost, they won't be respected. The first country that can make a viable army of robots (mass produced viable) wins the war.

              Ethics are a slippery slope, and there is no such thing as objective ethics.

              Check out my blog! The Daily Satanist

              Comment


                #8
                Re: The Pagan View On Technocracy

                first we must be clear,do we as humans really HAVE our own ethics in the first place? if our robotic children lack them,do we not need to accept our lack of teaching what we do not have ourselves.

                - - - Updated - - -

                a true base of ethics would never have allowed us to commit acts of war and carnage to ever even be considered
                Last edited by anunitu; 20 Aug 2018, 14:25.
                MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




                sigpic

                my new page here,let me know what you think.


                nothing but the shadow of what was

                witchvox
                http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

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                  #9
                  Re: The Pagan View On Technocracy

                  The "big scary" people see with ai is always that is created with good intentions but because humans are flawed what we create is flawed. I see that as bs. Sure humans can make mistakes, but do we always. If you want me to accept the doom and gloom ai idea, explain to me why there are so few auto accidents with so many on the road. Also, there are all kinds of things that can be done stop a rouge ai. the problem is that people are so scared of tech they don't even want to consider that it can be contained.

                  I mean here we are worrying about ai, but we won't created hardened computers or networks. but we have no problem buying a new cell phone or laptop with new opperating systems. If ai was a real threat we would activly trying to fight/protect from it. I always think of the idea of a tech plateau. A place where tech has matured and we are trying to protect ourselves from it rather than advancing it. Because it will be so advanced that there will be very little to be done to advance it.

                  Also, the idea that an ai can be all powerfull what about nature, evolution, and everything else. I mean an ai is going to have ultimate power, even over other ai's. the other ai's would stop it. and if not if the ai just is everything in tech with no other ai's that makes it hugely vulnerable to infiltration.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: The Pagan View On Technocracy

                    one issue that would stop a run away A.I.,is power. even now the use of coal,or oil to produce power is limited by pollution,and safety concerns with atomic power. NO power,no Electronic base for A.I. to exist. Even now there is some doubt we can continue our rape of the earth to get power.

                    The whole climate change issue hangs over everything.
                    MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                    all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                    NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                    don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




                    sigpic

                    my new page here,let me know what you think.


                    nothing but the shadow of what was

                    witchvox
                    http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: The Pagan View On Technocracy

                      Originally posted by anunitu View Post
                      first we must be clear,do we as humans really HAVE our own ethics in the first place? if our robotic children lack them,do we not need to accept our lack of teaching what we do not have ourselves.

                      - - - Updated - - -

                      a true base of ethics would never have allowed us to commit acts of war and carnage to ever even be considered
                      Is ethics something we have or something we do? If our morality is imperfect maybe it's only because the idea of perfection itself is flawed. The dot of yin in a sea of yang. And if we manage to pass onto AIs they too will struggle with morality dilemmas.

                      It seems that you advocate for an 'external' base for ethics, i.e. there is some 'true' base out there, humans imperfectly copy? Is this a common pagan belief? It seems quite similar to the Abrahamic faiths in that regard.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: The Pagan View On Technocracy

                        Originally posted by prometheus View Post
                        Is ethics something we have or something we do? If our morality is imperfect maybe it's only because the idea of perfection itself is flawed. The dot of yin in a sea of yang. And if we manage to pass onto AIs they too will struggle with morality dilemmas.

                        It seems that you advocate for an 'external' base for ethics, i.e. there is some 'true' base out there, humans imperfectly copy? Is this a common pagan belief? It seems quite similar to the Abrahamic faiths in that regard.
                        Ethics and morals are approximate at best. The concept of perfection is not flawed, it just doesn't apply to ethics and morals.

                        I think you're misinterpreting anunitu's idea. I think he's saying that there is no true base for ethics, because if it existed, we wouldn't have wars or carnage.

                        I'm going to throw something here: Maybe there IS a true base of ethics, and it allows such acts of war and carnage.

                        Maybe suffering is ethical. What is life, without pain?

                        Check out my blog! The Daily Satanist

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: The Pagan View On Technocracy

                          Originally posted by anunitu View Post
                          one issue that would stop a run away A.I.,is power. even now the use of coal,or oil to produce power is limited by pollution,and safety concerns with atomic power. NO power,no Electronic base for A.I. to exist. Even now there is some doubt we can continue our rape of the earth to get power.

                          The whole climate change issue hangs over everything.
                          This is very true, although maybe the need to feed AI might lead to the cleaner and renewable sources of energy being harvested sooner. If AI helps develop fusion energy for instance, it will have a far more stable food source than relying on fossil fuels.

                          Humans will probably suffer the effects of warming more than AI, and rightly so i guess: we caused it.




                          Originally posted by SeanRave View Post
                          Ethics and morals are approximate at best. The concept of perfection is not flawed, it just doesn't apply to ethics and morals.
                          To what does it apply?

                          Plato was interested in mathematics because he thought it was a vehicle to perfection, through which we could access perfect morality. Although maths is beautiful, it has yet to help too much in our moral development. But the Abrahamic faiths do seem to take on board this idea of perfection having a very distinct manifestation in the form of their God, so the attempt to apply to ethics has been made.



                          But from what people are saying here, it does not seem to be the dominant view in paganism? It seems closer to Taoism in that regard.



                          Originally posted by SeanRave View Post

                          I'm going to throw something here: Maybe there IS a true base of ethics, and it allows such acts of war and carnage.

                          Maybe suffering is ethical. What is life, without pain?
                          Honestly, it sounds like something a religious fundamentalist might say to justify violence.

                          I find the idea of morality being an act of authorship rather than something received more coherent. It makes ethics and morality a creative force manifested in the universe through human agency, in the same way other manifestations of nature might bring about the spiral arm of a galaxy, or the gentle lapping of sea upon beach stones. But like all Earth's manifestations, it grows up wonky, with few clear 'perfect' lines and angles.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: The Pagan View On Technocracy

                            I just want to come back and say. I am happy with the healthy discussions and know there is more than one side to the discussion. I myself am not a neo-Luddite as is apparent by the use of this internet tablet I am typing on now... We must come to a healthy balance though...

                            As Pagans, we have a responsibility to think about such matters, as we are the base reason behind the current Parliamentary government setup used in most of the world. Think Rome. Think Greece.

                            - - - Updated - - -

                            Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                            Many of us "pagans" do not like being lumped onto a "we pagans" group without our permission.

                            Probably a grammatical error, but do try to be careful of phrasing - do not appear to try to speak for those for whom you have no authority to speak.

                            ...
                            No it is not a grammar error, it is being sarcastic...

                            I explained earlier to someone with a similar concern that this is exactly the reason I joined the forum. However I am not ready to offer a solution to the use of Pagan/pagan yet. I need to see where you guys have been at in this forum over the last few years. I will pay special attention to posters such as you that have been around for a long time - and have stored their ideas about Paganism here.

                            As for my qualifications in such, I know three ancient languages used by Pagans and have been in contact with Pagan scholars all my life... I am not interested in closing the religion down - but more in being able to absolve responsibility for the extreme actions of others when the other side (the side that always burns our books) says, "you pagans".
                            Last edited by WyvernWorship; 21 Aug 2018, 05:12.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: The Pagan View On Technocracy

                              Originally posted by WyvernWorship View Post
                              I just want to come back and say. I am happy with the healthy discussions and know there is more than one side to the discussion. I myself am not a neo-Luddite as is apparent by the use of this internet tablet I am typing on now... We must come to a healthy balance though...

                              As Pagans, we have a responsibility to think about such matters, as we are the base reason behind the current Parliamentary government setup used in most of the world. Think Rome. Think Greece.

                              - - - Updated - - -



                              No it is not a grammar error, it is being sarcastic...

                              I explained earlier to someone with a similar concern that this is exactly the reason I joined the forum. However I am not ready to offer a solution to the use of Pagan/pagan yet. I need to see where you guys have been at in this forum over the last few years. I will pay special attention to posters such as you that have been around for a long time - and have stored their ideas about Paganism here.

                              As for my qualifications in such, I know three ancient languages used by Pagans and have been in contact with Pagan scholars all my life... I am not interested in closing the religion down - but more in being able to absolve responsibility for the extreme actions of others when the other side (the side that always burns our books) says, "you pagans".
                              I have no idea of what you're talking about. Your sentences make sense, and there is obviously a precise idea, but dude, WHAT are you trying to convey? Why all the mystery? How in hell was that sarcasm? We are individuals before being pagan, and as individuals it is natural that we chose our own responsibilities, not the Pagan label. I think you are overly complicating what pagan means, maybe you should share with us what your meaning of that is?

                              The core of the question at hand is flawed. There is not a single Pagan view on anything. Everybody, independently (but often influenced by) of their religion will have a unique point of view on the matter. There is no such thing as a Pagan consensus nor organization that dictates dogma.

                              Check out my blog! The Daily Satanist

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