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Thread: Celebrating Columbus Day; What's it really about?

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    Silver Member monsno_leedra's Avatar
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    Re: Happy Indigenous Peoples Day

    Quote Originally Posted by MaskedOne View Post
    I think I would be more tolerant of Columbus Day if Columbus himself was not a brutal ass that Spain removed from his role as a governor and stuck in a cell. When Colonial era Spain decides to live out the trope of "Evil has Standards" because your unnecessary brutality is bad for business then I don't see much need to celebrate you today. Yes, history is full of people that really don't fare well under inspection by modern eyes but Columbus was so pointlessly brutal that his own King and Queen decided he was a problem so I don't really feel a need to be lenient in my views on him. The irritating thing is that while he was never allowed to govern again, Spain eventually set him free.

    The native peoples of the Americas were not by any means moral paragons but I generally gives civilizations more leeway for bad behavior before my judgemental bastard streak appears then I do individuals. I'd rather give the day to the native peoples than to a man who was unnecessarily brutal by the standards of his time and well and truly deserving a lifetime stay in a small concrete box if not a firing squad by the standards of ours.

    Vespucci merits more recognition anyway for realizing that the Americas are new continents.
    Personally I think the problem is Columbus Day is not about honoring his time as governor but about being the explorer, navigator and just what it took to lead an expedition into the unknown. Overcoming the fear, the unknown, the loss of one of his ships, potential mutiny of his crews and then returning to report on it all. The discovery of a new land even if what he believed it was was actually incorrect.

    That is what the day honor's, well what I think it was supposed to honor anyway.

    That the Spanish court removed him for his transgression's and brutality applies to his ability as an administrator and government official. That and the transgression's of his brothers who were also listed as governor's and changed how things were being run. Some of the stuff I've read stating that one actually making it more brutal / exploitative and showing more favor driven policies.

    Should that be ignored? No, not at all. It needs to be known and understood just how bad it was. Right down to the fact that he was taken back to Spain in chains because of it. Then released again to go on a 4th voyage of exploration with the condition that he never return to the former site he held Governorship over. But it also needs to be recognized that the drive for gold, profit, conversion's and other things were equally being driven by the crown, business backers and other social conditions of the times.

    Still my biggest complaint though is probably the majority of people gripping about it don't know modern history much less history from the late 1400's and into the 1500's. Know even less about Indigenous / first nation's history and just how brutal that actually was and the atrocities that were committed.

    Happy Indigenous Peoples Day ... Ok describe an indigenous person ... what does one look like Ask the average person on the street and see what you get as an answer I'd almost bet they'll describe a plains indian, usually a Lakota from the movies..maybe an Apache
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  2. #12
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    Re: Happy Indigenous Peoples Day

    Quote Originally Posted by monsno_leedra View Post
    Personally I think the problem is Columbus Day is not about honoring his time as governor but about being the explorer, navigator and just what it took to lead an expedition into the unknown. Overcoming the fear, the unknown, the loss of one of his ships, potential mutiny of his crews and then returning to report on it all. The discovery of a new land even if what he believed it was was actually incorrect.

    That is what the day honor's, well what I think it was supposed to honor anyway.

    That the Spanish court removed him for his transgression's and brutality applies to his ability as an administrator and government official. That and the transgression's of his brothers who were also listed as governor's and changed how things were being run. Some of the stuff I've read stating that one actually making it more brutal / exploitative and showing more favor driven policies.

    Should that be ignored? No, not at all. It needs to be known and understood just how bad it was. Right down to the fact that he was taken back to Spain in chains because of it. Then released again to go on a 4th voyage of exploration with the condition that he never return to the former site he held Governorship over. But it also needs to be recognized that the drive for gold, profit, conversion's and other things were equally being driven by the crown, business backers and other social conditions of the times.

    Still my biggest complaint though is probably the majority of people gripping about it don't know modern history much less history from the late 1400's and into the 1500's. Know even less about Indigenous / first nation's history and just how brutal that actually was and the atrocities that were committed.

    Happy Indigenous Peoples Day ... Ok describe an indigenous person ... what does one look like Ask the average person on the street and see what you get as an answer I'd almost bet they'll describe a plains indian, usually a Lakota from the movies..maybe an Apache

    The drive to explore and courage to venture into the unknown are worth celebrating. Explorers however are not so vanishingly uncommon that Columbus whose time as a governor was so bad that he was summoned back to Spain in chains to account for his misconduct needs to be the explorer who gets a holiday. I'd expect that if society really wanted to find an explorer to celebrate that was not quite so horrible then it wouldn't be an impossible task. No historic figure or people is perfect. Humans always have flaws if you look hard enough but not all people have equivalent flaws and I think that if the deeply flawed Spanish Court of the 1500s can look at Columbus and condemn him for unnecessary brutality then from the vantage of 2019 we can afford to stop glorifying him. If in the process, we find some overlooked figure from history who did something awesome without managing to run afoul of "Evil has Standards" to replace him with then that would be even better.
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    Silver Member Bartmanhomer's Avatar
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    Re: Happy Indigenous Peoples Day

    There are a few contradictions here. Native America first discovers and live in America. Leik was the first European was to set land in America but there's no holiday in honour him for that. Then Christopher Columbus was the second man to set foot in America causing all sort of brutal and horrible things that he did to Native America and there was a holiday of him for concealing that (which I don't think he deserved a holiday at all in my opinion.) So I think they're a lot of stuff that people aren't telling us.
    Last edited by Bartmanhomer; 17 Oct 2019 at 12:52.

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    Re: Happy Indigenous Peoples Day

    Quote Originally Posted by MaskedOne View Post
    The drive to explore and courage to venture into the unknown are worth celebrating. Explorers however are not so vanishingly uncommon that Columbus whose time as a governor was so bad that he was summoned back to Spain in chains to account for his misconduct needs to be the explorer who gets a holiday. I'd expect that if society really wanted to find an explorer to celebrate that was not quite so horrible then it wouldn't be an impossible task. No historic figure or people is perfect. Humans always have flaws if you look hard enough but not all people have equivalent flaws and I think that if the deeply flawed Spanish Court of the 1500s can look at Columbus and condemn him for unnecessary brutality then from the vantage of 2019 we can afford to stop glorifying him. If in the process, we find some overlooked figure from history who did something awesome without managing to run afoul of "Evil has Standards" to replace him with then that would be even better.
    But he was being acknowledged for being the first to sail to the "New World" no other's recognized for that. Sure Lief the Lucky had gone but he didn't actually set up anything and stay there. Historically now we know that the Chinese probably arrived on the California coast and explored all the way down into the South American region as well. But again, that is history that at the time, and to some degree even now is now well known. Heck if I recall my history correctly there is speculation that the Phoenicians may have even landed in the America's at one point based upon some of the native lore.

    So while there are other explore's who are worthy of praise and probably better suited "Today" for a holiday in their honor, they were not the first historically. Figure the European Age of Exploration really kicks off shortly after the 1500's start but Columbus' voyage occurred prior to the formal start to that age. Though the Portuguese were starting explorations down the coast of Africa since the Arab countries had basically closed off the overland routes and red sea routes due to costs and other reasons.

    We talk about the plagues as part of the issue with Columbus and European contact. Yet if there is truth to the idea of Chinese contact as early as 1421 and actual outposts as some suggest were there plagues from that? Some nations have stories of sicknesses that wracked their peoples back then and caused lots of death. If so did those same plagues (presumed) also move inland moving in from the westcoast? We don't know for sure as they would be nearly 100 years before you'd see the plagues from contact with the European contact's which moved from the east. IN part it's still history being discovered or rediscovered.

    He's honored for being the first to do something of that magnitude. What he did later he screwed up I agree and that needs to be remembered as well and noted that he is not being honored nor remembered for that.

    Now does he need to have a universal holiday? I honestly don't know. Like I mentioned above I think Amerigo Vespucci is more deserving as he is the name sake for the land mass we call the America's and proved it was a new land mass. Columbus proved there was something out here but other's proved what it was and what it was not.

    As far as being to brutal, was he to brutal if compared to the other Spanish leaders that came after him? Some say he was removed not because of his brutality but because of constant suspicion about his loyalty to Spain since he was not Spanish. Some suggest it was the brutality of his brother once he was left in charge. Some suggest it was because Columbus might have been a little more religious than was desired and saw himself as something of a divine figure. Heck, it could have been all of those things combined.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    There are a few contradictions here. Native America first discovers and live in America. Leik was the first European was to set land in America but there's no holiday in honour him for that. Then Christopher Columbus was the second man to set foot in America causing all sort of brutal and horrible things that he did to Native America and there was a holiday of him for concealing that (which I don't think he deserved a holiday at all in my opinion.) So I think they're a lot of stuff that people aren't telling us.
    Theoretically Asian's discovered and lived in America first. They migrated across the Bearing Strait land bridge and came down into the America's. The alternate option, especially for South America is from the Polynesian Islands in the Pacific. So still not Native American's by definition.
    Last edited by monsno_leedra; 17 Oct 2019 at 13:28.
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    Re: Happy Indigenous Peoples Day

    Quote Originally Posted by monsno_leedra View Post
    But he was being acknowledged for being the first to sail to the "New World" no other's recognized for that. Sure Lief the Lucky had gone but he didn't actually set up anything and stay there. Historically now we know that the Chinese probably arrived on the California coast and explored all the way down into the South American region as well. But again, that is history that at the time, and to some degree even now is now well known. Heck if I recall my history correctly there is speculation that the Phoenicians may have even landed in the America's at one point based upon some of the native lore.

    So while there are other explore's who are worthy of praise and probably better suited "Today" for a holiday in their honor, they were not the first historically. Figure the European Age of Exploration really kicks off shortly after the 1500's start but Columbus' voyage occurred prior to the formal start to that age. Though the Portuguese were starting explorations down the coast of Africa since the Arab countries had basically closed off the overland routes and red sea routes due to costs and other reasons.

    We talk about the plagues as part of the issue with Columbus and European contact. Yet if there is truth to the idea of Chinese contact as early as 1421 and actual outposts as some suggest were there plagues from that? Some nations have stories of sicknesses that wracked their peoples back then and caused lots of death. If so did those same plagues (presumed) also move inland moving in from the westcoast? We don't know for sure as they would be nearly 100 years before you'd see the plagues from contact with the European contact's which moved from the east. IN part it's still history being discovered or rediscovered.

    He's honored for being the first to do something of that magnitude. What he did later he screwed up I agree and that needs to be remembered as well and noted that he is not being honored nor remembered for that.

    Now does he need to have a universal holiday? I honestly don't know. Like I mentioned above I think Amerigo Vespucci is more deserving as he is the name sake for the land mass we call the America's and proved it was a new land mass. Columbus proved there was something out here but other's proved what it was and what it was not.

    As far as being to brutal, was he to brutal if compared to the other Spanish leaders that came after him? Some say he was removed not because of his brutality but because of constant suspicion about his loyalty to Spain since he was not Spanish. Some suggest it was the brutality of his brother once he was left in charge. Some suggest it was because Columbus might have been a little more religious than was desired and saw himself as something of a divine figure. Heck, it could have been all of those things combined.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Theoretically Asian's discovered and lived in America first. They migrated across the Bearing Strait land bridge and came down into the America's. The alternate option, especially for South America is from the Polynesian Islands in the Pacific. So still not Native American's by definition.
    And this is what the teachers don't teach me like that when I was at school.

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    Re: Happy Indigenous Peoples Day

    So, a common reason Columbus is celebrated is because "he proved the Earth was round." This isn't true. Another reason that he's celebrated its because "he found America". This isn't true. Other celebrate him because he "settled America". This isn't true.

    The first colony was English, even though the Spanish were the first to explore here. Before that, America was settled by, get this, Native Americans. Reinforcing the idea that this land was unsettled before the English founded colonies perpetuates the harm of colonization.

    Columbus wasn't the first to come here, and his people didn't settle here before the English, so really he isn't that different from the Vikings who did the same thing, hundreds of years before. They came, found the Americas, traded with them, sometimes married them, or at least bred with them, and explored this land. That's what the Spanish did. The fact that the English from advantage of this rediscovered knowledge to colonize shouldn't be celebrated.

    And though the Church fought the idea that the earth was round during the dark ages, and it has generally been accepted that people agreed the Earth was flat until the Americas were found, scholars have agreed for more than 2000 years that the earth is round and a planet. They just couldn't be vocal about it because they would have been executed.
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    Re: Celebrating Columbus Day; What's it really about?

    I split off most of the posts from the Happy Indigenous People Day thread because a debate was happening in an inappropriate sub forum. This is the new home to continue discussing or debating Columbus, his actions, reasons for (or against) celebrating Columbus Day, etc.
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    Re: Celebrating Columbus Day; What's it really about?

    Well the truth of the matter is that Christopher Columbus is a total jerk. It took me awhile to realized what kind of person he really is. So I heard it from one person at my job saying that he's a racist and a rapist. I was very shock to hear about the horrible truth about him. I'm very disgusted of what that guy did and for now on I'm going to celebrated Indigenous Peoples Day every year.

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    Re: Celebrating Columbus Day; What's it really about?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    .. I'm very disgusted of what that guy did and for now on I'm going to celebrated Indigenous Peoples Day every year.
    Not trying to be an arse or anything here but in all seriousness what exactly are you going to be celebrating? Asking you BMH or anyone else who cares to answer.

    Celebrating Indigenous Peoples of the World? Celebrating Indigenous Peoples of the America's only? Celebrating the Indigenous Peoples of the North American land mass? Celebrating the fact your not celebrating Columbus? Then just what are you doing to celebrate these Indigenous Peoples? Especially given nearly anything that is done which requires you to wear something, eat something, show something, say something, almost acknowledge something people today are screaming "Cultural Appropriation" by doing so. History wise almost nothing is being taught or shown about Indigenous culture's since each Indigenous group had a unique culture for the most part.

    Figure there is no Native American Pantheon of divinities for instance but nearly 600 unique nations with their own histories, religious beliefs, creation stories, etc in North America alone.

    Again not trying to be a smart arse here. I am truly interested in how people are trying to celebrate this and honor / recognize indigenous peoples in their own respective way. Not make it a "It's not a Columbus Day" generic holiday that is supposedly about native peoples from around the world.
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    Silver Member Bartmanhomer's Avatar
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    Re: Celebrating Columbus Day; What's it really about?

    Native Americans who discover America celebrated Indigenous Peoples Day.
    Last edited by Bartmanhomer; 25 Oct 2019 at 12:18.

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