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FantasyWitch on the Fence- Ask an Atheistic Pagan

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    #16
    Re: FantasyWitch on the Fence- Ask an Atheistic Pagan

    Originally posted by Dumuzi View Post
    Hehe, oops.

    I was just trying to say, that in my opinion, that you can't admire creation without admiring the creator.

    For example, if you were cold and hungry, and then I gave you something to wear and a piece of bread. Would you be thankful to the bread, or give thanks to me, the one who gave you the bread?

    Just my point of view
    Both.


    BUT we don't KNOW if there is a creator, so I am sitting in a happy grey zone there :P And even if there is a God, I bet he/she/it is far beyond what we can even conceive, so my worship will do no good. X
    "You can never get a cup of tea large enough or a book long enough to suit me"- CS Lewis


    https://www.facebook.com/KimberlyHagenART

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      #17
      Re: FantasyWitch on the Fence- Ask an Atheistic Pagan

      You have exactly 1000 posts, by the way!

      On Topic:
      Conceiving god/the creator and worshiping him are two different things. You can always just give thanks to the creator whoever that is!
      [4:82]

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        #18
        Re: FantasyWitch on the Fence- Ask an Atheistic Pagan

        Originally posted by FantasyWitch View Post
        I don't think I'm quite ready to drop the pagan side yet. I still (as I said above) hold a few pagan habits and things that hold me to it quite contently. I can't bring myself to believe in a God/Goddess, its just not happening. But I would like to know IF I could be wrong.
        In essence I CAN'T believe/try to believe anymore, but I'd still like to KNOW.


        Hope that made sense. I've never actually thought about how to explain the conection I still feel to paganism before. It just seems natural. X
        Atheists "want" to know too - we just realize that we CAN'T know, and rely on what we DO know. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'm not beyond becoming religious again - I haven't "decided" that there's no way I'll ever believe in God. I just figure that it's been roughly 10,000 years since we've started believing in religion and it doesn't seem to have done us much good - certainly nobody can answer any God questions and know with an absolute fact that they're correct (otherwise there wouldn't be religious disagreements, even between members of the same sect).

        That being said, I do understand what you mean - it took me a couple of years before I felt comfortable dropping "Pagan" as well.

        The short answer? You won't know until you die. That is the ONLY time you will KNOW about religion. Nothing wrong with research and study, and there are quite a few Atheists who are experts on a variety of religions.

        ---------- Post added at 09:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:21 PM ----------

        Originally posted by cesara View Post
        While I agree....I MUST say that there certainly can be something spiritual (and magical, for that matter), about it while staying firmly in an atheistic frame set. To acknowledge the gaps in scientific knowledge with wonder and reverence doesn't necessarily mean inserting deity.
        I agree wholeheartedly - "Wonder" does not need to come from "God" (or equivalent). I am thankful every day that I wake up in the morning, I smoke my last cigarette at night looking up at the night sky and pondering the beauty and wonder in our Universe. Doesn't mean that a consciousness caused it

        ---------- Post added at 09:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:23 PM ----------

        Originally posted by Dumuzi View Post
        Hmmmm

        I've always found it puzzling for someone to appreciate or revere nature, while being atheist at the same time. To me that's like praising a painting while refusing to praise the painter.
        That's because you assume that there MUST be a creator. Regardless of your beliefs, or where your information is from, it's still an assumption. Atheists, by and large, don't like to make assumptions like that - we assume, rather, that until there's a reason to believe that something HAD to be created, that it just "happened" as a matter of course.

        Example? It's hard to give an example because every example I'd give, you'd see as being created by God anyway I can see the beauty in a flame or a volcano...I may have started the fire, but I'm certainly not controlling it. I usually have less to do with volcano's exploding though

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          #19
          Re: FantasyWitch on the Fence- Ask an Atheistic Pagan

          Originally posted by Roknrol View Post
          That's because you assume that there MUST be a creator. Regardless of your beliefs, or where your information is from, it's still an assumption. Atheists, by and large, don't like to make assumptions like that - we assume, rather, that until there's a reason to believe that something HAD to be created, that it just "happened" as a matter of course.
          It is not an assumption, though

          Think about it, rationally. Everything that is created has a cause. This isn't an opinion, it's a fact. Show me one thing in this creation that doesn't have a cause and I might change my position. But since there is no such thing, my argument still stands. Everything that is created has a cause.

          (I always add the following, because people get confused. I want to point out that I neither mentioned God in the above post, nor did I talk about religion. All I did was use simple rational, that anyone can understand)
          [4:82]

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            #20
            Re: FantasyWitch on the Fence- Ask an Atheistic Pagan

            Originally posted by Dumuzi View Post
            It is not an assumption, though
            Think about it, rationally. Everything that is created has a cause. This isn't an opinion, it's a fact.
            ERm...yes, everything that's been CREATED has a creator...but you're filling in the answer to the question within the question itself. Who says that something has to be CREATED to exist? Therein lies the assumption.

            Show me one thing in this creation that doesn't have a cause and I might change my position.
            Now you're changing the question

            There are lots of things that have CAUSES but no CREATOR. Snow falls from the sky in some parts of the world. Sometimes it overloads a tree or a house to the point that it collapses. I have yet to be able to point my finger at whoever "caused" it

            From my perspective, the Universe is a perfect example (well, and everything in it). Just because it *exists*, doesn't mean that an intelligent being *created* it - that's the assumption that I'm talking about.

            But since there is no such thing, my argument still stands. Everything that is created has a cause.
            I'm not disagreeing with this, but this is NOT the same question that you posted above. You said that everything that is created has a cause - I don't dispute that. But not everything that *exists* has been "created" (implying an intelligence behind it, although the word "created" does not by itself imply that - example, "The snow created a hole where my roof used to be". No creator)

            Sorry if this looks messy - my text and the background clash when I'm at work so it's REALLY hard to read

            (I always add the following, because people get confused. I want to point out that I neither mentioned God in the above post, nor did I talk about religion. All I did was use simple rational, that anyone can understand)
            Nope, you sure didn't - and I think I understand why you posted the disclaimer, but I don't think it really applies.

            There are three possibilities: Either there is 1) a Creator, however it didn't create our Universe, 2) A creator that DID create our Universe or 3) No creator.

            We have no evidence to support #'s 1&2. None. Zero. We have the words of people that may or may not have been smarter than us, and we have a whole lot of cultures and people repeating it - that's what we've got. Proof is lacking
            Last edited by Roknrol; 16 Feb 2011, 15:24.

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              #21
              Re: FantasyWitch on the Fence- Ask an Atheistic Pagan

              Originally posted by Dumuzi View Post
              Hmmmm

              I've always found it puzzling for someone to appreciate or revere nature, while being atheist at the same time. To me that's like praising a painting while refusing to praise the painter.
              I love nature and all her wild things. I revere it for the spectacular event that it is. Do you think Atheists simply are soulless beings who wear grey and talk like a robot?
              Satan is my spirit animal

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                #22
                Re: FantasyWitch on the Fence- Ask an Atheistic Pagan

                Good Conversation.

                Originally posted by Dumuzi View Post
                Think about it, rationally. Everything that is created has a cause. This isn't an opinion, it's a fact. Show me one thing in this creation that doesn't have a cause and I might change my position. But since there is no such thing, my argument still stands. Everything that is created has a cause.
                I agree with you on this....proof of 'cause' is all around us....BUT, I think -- the 'cause' doesn't necessarily have to be God, or any type of conscious deity. That is where rationality diverges and assumption comes in to play.

                ---------- Post added at 12:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:04 AM ----------

                Originally posted by FantasyWitch View Post
                Sounds like more research is in order. This being another one of those paths (like the one I follow) where it is hard to explain in words, its just to do with your view and no one elses? X
                Hmm, I suppose.

                See: http://www.paganforum.com/showthread...27-Panentheism

                Hope it's helpful!
                Last edited by cesara; 16 Feb 2011, 16:10.
                Allow me to lend a machete to your intellectual thicket. ~ Captain Jack Sparrow

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                  #23
                  Re: FantasyWitch on the Fence- Ask an Atheistic Pagan

                  Originally posted by Roknrol View Post
                  But not everything that *exists* has been "created"
                  Rok, I never made that statement. I said everything that is created has a cause. I will try to explain what I wanted to say.

                  1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
                  2. The universe began to exist.
                  3. Therefor, the universe has a cause

                  First statement is proven by everything around us. Even in your example, the roof fell because the snow caused it to fall. And I have yet to see actual proof against my second statement, as opposed to the proof for it. Especially, since every single thing that we observe in this creation has a beginning. Everything. So the burden of proof would be on the ones who deny this, to show me that the universe in fact did not have a beginning.

                  So my conclusion still stands. Rationally, at least ;-)

                  Originally posted by Medusa View Post
                  I love nature and all her wild things. I revere it for the spectacular event that it is. Do you think Atheists simply are soulless beings who wear grey and talk like a robot?
                  No, no, honey. I am saying the opposite. I am saying the fact that lots of atheists do revere nature that much, puzzles me, because it's like saying this piece of art is amazing, while rejecting the idea that it was created by an artist.

                  Originally posted by cesara View Post
                  Good Conversation.
                  I agree with you on this....proof of 'cause' is all around us....BUT, I think -- the 'cause' doesn't necessarily have to be God, or any type of conscious deity. That is where rationality diverges and assumption comes in to play.
                  Yep, I haven't brought God into the conversation. I am simply pointing out the fact that this creation does have a cause. That's all.

                  Of course, I can also rationally link that cause to Allah, but that belongs to another thread. ;-)

                  All of this started because of my comment to FW. If you do want to be thankful for the bread, you gotta give thanks to the one that gave you the bread, and not the bread itself. Whatever that 'creator' might be.
                  [4:82]

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                    #24
                    Re: FantasyWitch on the Fence- Ask an Atheistic Pagan

                    Originally posted by Dumuzi View Post
                    Yep, I haven't brought God into the conversation. I am simply pointing out the fact that this creation does have a cause. That's all.

                    Of course, I can also rationally link that cause to Allah, but that belongs to another thread. ;-)

                    All of this started because of my comment to FW. If you do want to be thankful for the bread, you gotta give thanks to the one that gave you the bread, and not the bread itself. Whatever that 'creator' might be.
                    Yup...and that cause is nature.
                    Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                      #25
                      Re: FantasyWitch on the Fence- Ask an Atheistic Pagan

                      Originally posted by Dumuzi View Post
                      Rok, I never made that statement. I said everything that is created has a cause. I will try to explain what I wanted to say.

                      1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
                      2. The universe began to exist.
                      3. Therefor, the universe has a cause
                      Yup - I agree with all of this - but nowhere in here does it say that something has to have been caused by an intelligent being. That's kinda my point Sometimes, as much as we hate to admit it, shit just happens. Doesn't have to have been someone's "fault". I never said the Universe was eternal - quite the contrary, there's enough evidence to suggest that this is not the case. But just because it's HERE, does not mean that it was "Created" (indicating an intelligence, of course). It could have been "created" when two other Universes collided, or when the 76th plane of existence ceased to exist: That's the point, we don't know. Those arguing the "creation" (as in, with a *creatOR*) are the folks assuming that there is, in fact, a creatOR.

                      As an Atheist I don't dispute that the Universe is here, and I don't argue that it's eternal or that it's always existed or anything like that. I'm just saying it (probably) wasn't CREATED (implying, once again, an intelligence behind it).

                      I think perhaps the terms are getting confused here: When I hear the word "created", it implies that someone or something intentionally caused it to happen (we can get into a sticky grammar issue, but I'm trying to avoid that )

                      From what we can tell - scientifically - the Universe "became"...it wasn't, and then it was. Anything prior to the Universe's existence is completely beyond the realm of science at this point, so science doesn't concern itself with what came first, much like "what will be here after"...who f'ing cares? WE sure won't be here!

                      And yes - I tend to agree with thalassa on this

                      Originally posted by Dumuzi View Post
                      First statement is proven by everything around us. Even in your example, the roof fell because the snow caused it to fall. And I have yet to see actual proof against my second statement, as opposed to the proof for it. Especially, since every single thing that we observe in this creation has a beginning. Everything. So the burden of proof would be on the ones who deny this, to show me that the universe in fact did not have a beginning.
                      Well, you can't offer proof against an idea - that flies in the very face of science. The claimant (yourself) states that the Universe had to have been Created. Ok, I can get on board with that - but it's up to you to provide the proof (not up to me to prove you wrong).

                      So my conclusion still stands. Rationally, at least ;-)


                      No, no, honey. I am saying the opposite. I am saying the fact that lots of atheists do revere nature that much, puzzles me, because it's like saying this piece of art is amazing, while rejecting the idea that it was created by an artist.



                      Yep, I haven't brought God into the conversation. I am simply pointing out the fact that this creation does have a cause. That's all.

                      Of course, I can also rationally link that cause to Allah, but that belongs to another thread. ;-)

                      All of this started because of my comment to FW. If you do want to be thankful for the bread, you gotta give thanks to the one that gave you the bread, and not the bread itself. Whatever that 'creator' might be.[/QUOTE]

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                        #26
                        Re: FantasyWitch on the Fence- Ask an Atheistic Pagan

                        Originally posted by Dumuzi View Post
                        All of this started because of my comment to FW. If you do want to be thankful for the bread, you gotta give thanks to the one that gave you the bread, and not the bread itself. Whatever that 'creator' might be.
                        I really don't want to derail this thread any more, but I must point out that.....you are assuming that the bread and the giver of the bread are two separate things. What if I were to tell you that the "Creator" didn't 'create' the bread.....the "Creator" became the bread.....
                        Last edited by cesara; 16 Feb 2011, 18:13.
                        Allow me to lend a machete to your intellectual thicket. ~ Captain Jack Sparrow

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                          #27
                          Re: FantasyWitch on the Fence- Ask an Atheistic Pagan

                          I feel high whilst reading this thread.
                          Satan is my spirit animal

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                            #28
                            Re: FantasyWitch on the Fence- Ask an Atheistic Pagan

                            Originally posted by Medusa View Post
                            I feel high whilst reading this thread.
                            I agree Watching D and Rok debate makes me feel thick as mince :P

                            Basically I agree with Rok. The idea that a child needs a mother doesn't mean the universe needs one. That is down to assumption. I'm sure there is a fallacy involved there somewhere.... X
                            "You can never get a cup of tea large enough or a book long enough to suit me"- CS Lewis


                            https://www.facebook.com/KimberlyHagenART

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                              #29
                              Re: FantasyWitch on the Fence- Ask an Atheistic Pagan

                              Originally posted by Roknrol View Post
                              Yup - I agree with all of this
                              Yay, you finally agree!

                              Rok, while I can easily and rationally show that this cause has the attributes of god, I haven't done so at all in this thread. Where did I say that this cause is intelligent, for example? Perhaps, it was my use of the word creator.

                              The point I was making to FW, since this is what this thread is really about, is that some people have respect/revere/are thankful to things that we see in this universe, regardless of having intelligence or not. So by that logic, one should have even more respect/reverence/be more thankful to the cause that made it possible for this universe to exist. Whether this cause is intelligent or not is irrelevant to that line of thought.

                              Now understand my point?
                              Originally posted by cesara View Post
                              I really don't want to derail this thread any more, but I must point out that.....you are assuming that the bread and the giver of the bread are two separate things. What if I were to tell you that the "Creator" didn't 'create' the bread.....the "Creator" became the bread.....
                              Its body became bread and its blood became wine? ::

                              Yeah, I won't derail the thread, anymore, but I'd love to discuss this with you somewhere else!
                              [4:82]

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                                #30
                                Re: FantasyWitch on the Fence- Ask an Atheistic Pagan

                                Originally posted by Dumuzi View Post
                                Yay, you finally agree!

                                Rok, while I can easily and rationally show that this cause has the attributes of god, I haven't done so at all in this thread. Where did I say that this cause is intelligent, for example? Perhaps, it was my use of the word creator.

                                The point I was making to FW, since this is what this thread is really about, is that some people have respect/revere/are thankful to things that we see in this universe, regardless of having intelligence or not. So by that logic, one should have even more respect/reverence/be more thankful to the cause that made it possible for this universe to exist. Whether this cause is intelligent or not is irrelevant to that line of thought.

                                Now understand my point?
                                Aye...just wanted to make myself clear too I thought FW might benefit from seeing the other side, is all

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