The concept of the Crusades has been corrupted by the American Left.

[PharaohKatt]

Re: The concept of the Crusades has been corrupted by the American Left.

People will use anything to dehumanise people; religion, lack of religion, skin colour, sexuality, ability or disability.. It's such a long endless cycle of hate and heartache.

I agree, Dumuzi, if only people could be more like Jesus! He gave to the poor, showed love to prostitutes and thieves, accepted the lowest of the low! That's someone I admire greatly.

[Dez]

Re: The concept of the Crusades has been corrupted by the American Left.

I see what you two are saying, but having been in the other camp, it is almost impossible to tell that you're there when you're in it. There's a lot of rationalizing, and a lot of "I do all those things Christ said to do...as a part of belonging to my church" with no real need felt to help the larger community, something you've usually been taught is out to get you, and you should be afraid of.

It's an awful mental place to be in...I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. It takes a lot to get out of that head-space, especially the "us vs. them" mentality.

[ChainLightning]

Re: The concept of the Crusades has been corrupted by the American Left.

Yup, it's kind of a thick veil that we are fortunate enough to try to be looking in, through. From the other side of that veil, we're the corrupted. We're the brainwashed, misinformed and misguided. From their perspective? They're right and we're wrong. Both academically and religiously/spiritually.

It's a tough veil to remove.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: The concept of the Crusades has been corrupted by the American Left.

Of course, another point worth making is that not all the Crusades actually took place in Jerusalem. The fourth crusade took place in Constantinople and the Albigensian Crusade took place in the Languedoc, southern France against the Cathar 'heresy.'

Pretty terrifying stuff.

[Thjoth]

Re: The concept of the Crusades has been corrupted by the American Left.

Yup, it's kind of a thick veil that we are fortunate enough to try to be looking in, through. From the other side of that veil, we're the corrupted. We're the brainwashed, misinformed and misguided. From their perspective? They're right and we're wrong. Both academically and religiously/spiritually.

It's a tough veil to remove.

Has someone been reading W.E.B. Du Bois?

[ChainLightning]

Re: The concept of the Crusades has been corrupted by the American Left.

Has someone been reading W.E.B. Du Bois?

Truthfully? I never heard of the guy. I just took a cue from Deseret's comment about having been 'in the other camp'. For every complaint we have about this one guy's claims, how the entire concept of the Crusades has been butchered, modified and/or fabricated (et al), his side has a complaint about us and our "claims". We may see him as completely off the map, in regards to historical accuracy, but what does he see us as? Completely off the map. How are we supposed to convince him of ANYTHING? We can't. And nor can he convince us.

[Dez]

Re: The concept of the Crusades has been corrupted by the American Left.

True...the goal for understanding isn't polar opposites, but both sides being willing to seek (or at least recognize) middle ground.

That, though, raises a whole new problem, which is that both sides have to be honest about it, rather then having one side actually cooperate, and the other keep saying the same thing over and over, or even become more extreme because they think they're making headway

[B. de Corbin]

Re: The concept of the Crusades has been corrupted by the American Left.

You can't count on the other guy being reasonable, so the best bet is to be reasonable yourself and then draw a line.

Of course, both sides can choose to be unreasonable, but that tends to go down hill very fast, and then neither can claim to be the good guy.

There actually is something to be gained by being the adult. It isn't always immediately clear what it is that is gained, but there is usually something there.

Maybe it's just peace of mind.

[Thjoth]

Re: The concept of the Crusades has been corrupted by the American Left.

Truthfully? I never heard of the guy. I just took a cue from Deseret's comment about having been 'in the other camp'. For every complaint we have about this one guy's claims, how the entire concept of the Crusades has been butchered, modified and/or fabricated (et al), his side has a complaint about us and our "claims". We may see him as completely off the map, in regards to historical accuracy, but what does he see us as? Completely off the map. How are we supposed to convince him of ANYTHING? We can't. And nor can he convince us.

Ah, I was referring more to the "veil" analogy. W.E.B. Du Bois was really fond of using that one regarding race relations in the US (this was circa 1900-1930).

Everything you just said is completely true, though

[ChainLightning]

Re: The concept of the Crusades has been corrupted by the American Left.

What's really, really sad is that 'evidence' isn't evidence, in the face of such opposition. This same gap exists in the 'Holocaust Deniers' [sarcasm] argument. Evidence, to the rest of the world, suddenly becomes some sort of fictional propaganda to these folks. We can try to be patient, understanding, even flexible, in trying to reach a middle ground but it's all for naught if everything we're armed with, every fact, every piece of evidence, every obvious detail, is discarded as nothing more than brainwashing fodder. We're whistling in the wind.

It makes me doubly sad because this is a religious-based idiom. Any attempt to straighten out the misconceptions of history is seen as a belligerent attack on innocents, persecution, a threat to religious freedom. You've basically lost the argument before you even started because there is no trust, no common reality.

THIS. Is why it's important to SHARE. It's why I am so passionate about Pagan Forum. A warm, gentle, COMFORTABLE setting to try and reach the unreachable. To share life and to share experiences. Call me an idealist.

[Taiga Pagan]

Re: The concept of the Crusades has been corrupted by the American Left.

What in the name of Heimdall's Farting Horn!?!?! Bible thumpers again!
Facepalms are not enough...this guy needs brain surgery.

[Tree Beard]

Re: The concept of the Crusades has been corrupted by the American Left.

Why are we mainly seeing this stuff said in America? Does anyone else have this go on in your country at the same intensity?

[Monk]

Re: The concept of the Crusades has been corrupted by the American Left.

Why are we mainly seeing this stuff said in America? Does anyone else have this go on in your country at the same intensity?

This nation of ours has become little more than a vast herd of sheep, people sit in front of their televisions and suck up the corporate news bull shit. Many/most do nothing even if something does upset them. They go to their churches mostly out of habit and to be seen at church. Five minutes after mass lets out they couldn't tell you what was talked about by the reverend, minister or priest, etc. Many have never even read any of the holy books they so loudly profess to believe in.
We vote by name not by accomplishment for our politicians, so this means if you have big money and powerful (insert corporate) backers who can put your face in front of millions of people your chances are good at being elected. But the cost for this backing is your soul for if you don't play their game you can forget politics. The old movie metropolis comes to mind. Those of us that make any kind of waves are called nuts, radicals, traitors, and the best one "Threats to this great nation of ours".
The problem with this politicians statement about the crusades is not only was he wrong, but I doubt that many of his constituents even noticed.

[DanieMarie]

Re: The concept of the Crusades has been corrupted by the American Left.

Why are we mainly seeing this stuff said in America? Does anyone else have this go on in your country at the same intensity?

Nope. Not even close.

Don't get me wrong....we have our own stuff. It's just different stuff.

[ThatKrazy]

Re: The concept of the Crusades has been corrupted by the American Left.

Why are we mainly seeing this stuff said in America? Does anyone else have this go on in your country at the same intensity?

I'm in America and believe it is horribly shameful that we allow such ignorant people to control our laws. However, we're not the only ones with whacked out right-wing nutcases. We're just people who should know better than to let such people into our government.

In the UK, they have the British Nationalist Party, an "indigenous British" only party until the government deemed that unconstitutional last year, after that phrase being in the party's constitution since its founding in '83. While they have yet to get an MP elected, they do hold several local government seats, as well as two seats in the European Parliament. They also got over 500,000 votes in the last national election. For the most part, though, they are as hated and ridiculed by most British as the KKK is here.

Also, let's not forget the really crazy, but less powerful, leaders in the world like Holocaust-denier Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.