Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

What doesn't science do for you?

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #16
    Re: What doesn't science do for you?

    For me, science doesn't quite cover everything I have experienced, no matter how hard I've tried.

    Also, in another direction -- science is not always truth either. See autism/vaccine study debunked for example. This was touted as science and was completely false. Also see http://www.junkscience.com for some more.

    Comment


      #17
      Re: What doesn't science do for you?

      Most scientists don't find the findings of every study to be absolute truth though. Theories are never set in stone, that's why they're called "theories" and not "laws." Even the details of a lot of pretty sound theories are still under question. And there's lots out there that hasn't been explained by science at all but that doesn't mean there isn't a scientific explanation...it's just that no one has found one yet

      I have a lot of scientist friends, and the above is the exact reason they have a passion for science. I also think it's a big reason why artists and scientists make great friends a lot of the time...there's a lot of discovery and thinking outside the box in both, just in different ways and applied to different things. Both sets need to be able to see something and not only see it for what it is but also what it might be.

      Comment


        #18
        Re: What doesn't science do for you?

        It's easy for science to be false - the autism/vaccine thing for example - take a hypothesis and set out to prove it, and it either proves true or false. Religion has no significant arena of tangible proof, nor is one desired by most participants. "Faith-based" is just that - based on one's belief in something intangible and unprovable. It's emotion-driven as opposed to logic-driven. I believe we need both. It's the yin/yang thing that keeps us balanced.
        sigpic
        Can you hear me, Major Tom? I think I love you.

        Comment


          #19
          Re: What doesn't science do for you?

          ...the problem with the autism study was that it was bad science--and was promulgated as such almost from the get-go by the medical and scientific communities, the anti-vaccine community just couldn't give it up and continued to bandy it about as if it were good, quality, clinical research..and since the media only reports things that are controversial, never bothered with correcting their original stories until it was discovered that not only was the original researcher a bad scientist, but was also a flat out unethical fraud.

          Really, in this sense, I don't think its a good indication of anything other than the fact that people will use whatever tools they have at their disposal of whatever POV they are espousing, whether that tool happens to be Christian Scientists, or Jenny McCarthy.
          Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
          sigpic

          Comment


            #20
            Re: What doesn't science do for you?

            And of course, there's big money in big pharma. The FDA approves things that they shouldn't. Research is often incomplete or skewed toward the dollar sign. Then, years later, you have all these lawyers making money off the fact that Darvon caused heart trouble, etc., etc.
            sigpic
            Can you hear me, Major Tom? I think I love you.

            Comment


              #21
              Re: What doesn't science do for you?

              I tend to find one augments the other. Studying into quantum physics there is a black hole explanation that almost "proves" how my path teaches how the universe runs. The string theory when squished is the nanogram/tree-of-life. Tried to disprove magickal squares, failed. New drugs/treatments show old time alchemy right even if it's a different reason (have a decent example of that I found while treating my thyroid). It gets in and shows the "how" of things that have been taught on a spiritual level, but doesn't answer the "why". Dare to say we need the two together.
              -=Ex Ignorantia Ad Sapientiam; E Luce Ad Tenebras=-

              My art and writing http://khaotyk-artwerx.tk/
              (whole site is marked adult, the adult and gore sections are in their own section so you can opt not to view them, adult and/or gore stories are marked with an *)

              Comment


                #22
                Re: What doesn't science do for you?

                I've read the posts - but I don't feel like quoting each person, so please, if I neglect to address a comment, please restate it - I'll try to do better about returning to the thread when I've got time

                First, a few erroneous assumptions have been made regarding the question: It was neither stated nor implied that science is "better" than religion, or that every scientist knows what in the fuck they're doing - any more than every priest(ess) knows what in the fuck they're doing.

                Judging by what I'm seeing here, Deseret is the only one that answered the question without assuming that I've had an agenda.

                Now. To restate, and hopefully clear up some of the bullshit confusion:

                From science, I get the knowledge that my life is progressing "normally". I do not assume that I am somehow more "special" than my fellow human beings, and Science does not pull any punches when it lets me know that. I appreciate science, and adhere to it, because it tends to be a whole fuck of a lot smarter than myself, as long as I take some precautions to ensure that the information I'm getting is valid.

                Religion has no such stopgaps in place - if an "expert" tells you something, your options are to believe or to not believe. Whether that person is right or wrong will never be made clear. I read, recently, a line that I thought was interesting (and please, this is not intended to offend): When asked about the bible, a response that I had heard was, "Are the authors smarter than you?" That question had a profound effect on my perception of religion, and after a couple of weeks of mulling it over, I thought I would ask some real believers.

                So, once again, what do you get out of religion? Some of you have rituals and holidays that you participate in, under the auspices of accomplishing something. That accomplishement IS what you're getting out of your religion. Some of you simply hold beliefs. Some of you pray. Some of you probably masterbate to pictures of goats. The question still stands: What do you get out of religion that you do not get from science?

                Can we please move on past the "What's he up to?" bullshit? There's no hidden agenda - I'm simply curious.

                Comment


                  #23
                  Re: What doesn't science do for you?

                  Originally posted by Roknrol View Post

                  So, once again, what do you get out of religion? Some of you have rituals and holidays that you participate in, under the auspices of accomplishing something. That accomplishement IS what you're getting out of your religion. Some of you simply hold beliefs. Some of you pray. Some of you probably masterbate to pictures of goats. The question still stands: What do you get out of religion that you do not get from science?
                  As in, why doesn't science fulfill our needs for answers and comfort?

                  In heathenry there isn't a contradiction between science and myth. The gods didn't create the universe, they're a product of it. Any answers that science gives me doesn't invalidate my religion but deepens the layers. What religion does is give me a code of conduct. Sure, most of my actions and reactions can be explained away as biological urges but heathenry allows me to be responsible for who I am as a product of nature and scientific fact in a way that ensures my happiness.

                  Even atheists live by some code. They choose to follow society's code, the legal system, the local laws as a matter of survival and for personal happiness. God tells him to go to church on Sunday and the DPS tells her to drive 15 miles per hour in a school zone. There isn't a huge difference. You follow the laws so that you can be happy in other areas, or because being a law-abiding citizen makes you happy.

                  From science, I get the knowledge that my life is progressing "normally". I do not assume that I am somehow more "special" than my fellow human beings, and Science does not pull any punches when it lets me know that. I appreciate science, and adhere to it, because it tends to be a whole fuck of a lot smarter than myself, as long as I take some precautions to ensure that the information I'm getting is valid.
                  I find in heathenry that the message isn't eally that dissimilar to the one you're providing here. This is the world; we live in it, other people live in it, try not to be a total sh*thead. There isn't an eternal reward, there's no personal salvation. It is what it is. There's no plan, no god who created us for some special purpose, there's just life so try to live it with a little dignity. It's a way of taking...science, really, and just making the best of it. The universe was created from the Big Bang, fine...how can I just live decently and take care of mine?

                  Religion has no such stopgaps in place - if an "expert" tells you something, your options are to believe or to not believe. Whether that person is right or wrong will never be made clear. I read, recently, a line that I thought was interesting (and please, this is not intended to offend): When asked about the bible, a response that I had heard was, "Are the authors smarter than you?" That question had a profound effect on my perception of religion, and after a couple of weeks of mulling it over, I thought I would ask some real believers.
                  I guess I'm not looking for my religion to be right. I don't need answers to any big questions. I'm not worried about where I'll go. That's not the point. Heathenry basically says you build your future, your choices affect those who will come after you. What I do today will influence the lives of my descendants two thousand years from now. That's not a belief, that's fact. I'm intimately tied to the future, I create it, it's my life continuining on and my life is the life story of my first ancestor. There's no right or wrong.

                  Science is just a part of it, not an enemy to it, basically. Science tells me my choices, heatherny is the philosophy that enables me to pick the most responsible one.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Re: What doesn't science do for you?

                    It's a hard question for me to answer, because it's not really that science is failing to give me something, it's just that I see it as one tool to know and explore the world around me while my spirituality is another. One isn't better than the other, they both give me similar things - just in different ways. Take either away, and I would feel as if something was missing.
                    (I want to stress that "I" there, because I don't feel that the "Atheists of the world are missing something" or any other group who doesn't think the exact same way that I do...)

                    I'm not sure if that makes sense, so let's take one example of something I would say my religion gives me - a connection to/understanding of/appreciation of nature. Well, it's not that science doesn't give me that, I certainly get all that about nature when I study it from a scientific standpoint. So perhaps it's better to say religion gives me a deeper understanding and connection to nature. If the question were put in reverse (what doesn't religion do for you?) the answer would be the same.
                    Then again, it's not just those two things - as another example, art can give me those three things as well...

                    It's the same for anything else I can think of - for whatever I think religion gives me, science seems to as well, just in different ways usually. Likewise, it's not just those two which provide me with (whatever).
                    So, what doesn't science do for me? It only gives me the scientific way to look at things (which makes sense!), it only gives me one tool out of several that I like to use.


                    Now as to all this...
                    Originally posted by Roknrol View Post
                    From science, I get the knowledge that my life is progressing "normally". I do not assume that I am somehow more "special" than my fellow human beings, and Science does not pull any punches when it lets me know that.
                    I can agree with this - but both on the level of science and spirituality. Neither makes me "special" and both provide me with a way of judging my life's progress, so to speak.

                    Religion has no such stopgaps in place - if an "expert" tells you something, your options are to believe or to not believe.
                    In the end, yes, you will have to accept or reject the information, but it doesn't have to be done on blind faith. I find religion provides tools with which to judge such things. Yep, it's certainly more subjective - but I guess I don't see that as necessarily a bad thing.

                    When asked about the bible, a response that I had heard was, "Are the authors smarter than you?"
                    Obviously I am not a Christian, but you know, wouldn't most Christians say that the Bible is the word of God and of course God is smarter?
                    Hearth and Hedge

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Re: What doesn't science do for you?

                      Sorry Rok....I can't speak for others but my rant wasn't about you at all. It's just that I have some atheist, science fan friends who get a bit judgmental about religion and every time the subject comes up that comes up too. Didn't mean to imply that everyone was the same.

                      I guess, one thing I can say that science definitely doesn't give me given the criteria you posted is that sometimes, I'm so lonely. I mean, I have friends and family, but the majority of my time, I'm really alone. I can't really do things spontaneously unless I'm prepared to go alone, can only really travel alone, etc. But when I pray, or do rituals, or meditate, I feel like I'm not so alone.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Re: What doesn't science do for you?

                        Originally posted by Wednesday View Post
                        As in, why doesn't science fulfill our needs for answers and comfort?
                        Could be - it's a very broad question. If you get comfort and answers from religion, and that's why you believe, I'm curious as to the failings of science that do not provide those things.

                        Originally posted by Wednesday View Post
                        In heathenry there isn't a contradiction between science and myth. The gods didn't create the universe, they're a product of it. Any answers that science gives me doesn't invalidate my religion but deepens the layers.
                        I follow...

                        Originally posted by Wednesday View Post
                        What religion does is give me a code of conduct. Sure, most of my actions and reactions can be explained away as biological urges but heathenry allows me to be responsible for who I am as a product of nature and scientific fact in a way that ensures my happiness.
                        I'm not sure if I have this straight, so please don't take this offensively: Do you feel that science neglects things like morality and ethics? Do you feel that religion gives you a better "moral compass" than the standard "treat others as you'd like to be treated" that most of us are raised believing (regardless of religious beliefs)?

                        Originally posted by Wednesday View Post
                        Even atheists live by some code. They choose to follow society's code, the legal system, the local laws as a matter of survival and for personal happiness.
                        Unless you're an Atheist, I don't think you're particularly qualified to make that determination For the record, I follow the laws that I choose to follow, and my "moral compass" is primarily a result of my experiences and the realization that if I treat someone in a manner that I don't want to be treated, I've lost the right to bitch when someone else treats me the same way. It has nothing to do with societal norms, since most of society is locked into their little circle and for them, nothing else exists (or matters). My personal happiness is largely determined by what goes on inside of my own head, and also has little to no bearing on science.

                        Originally posted by Wednesday View Post
                        God tells him to go to church on Sunday and the DPS tells her to drive 15 miles per hour in a school zone. There isn't a huge difference. You follow the laws so that you can be happy in other areas, or because being a law-abiding citizen makes you happy.
                        Actually, there IS a huge difference, since religion isn't held accountable for what they teach. Science is, as is evidenced by the earlier links about Autism. As a counterexample, it took the Catholic church 2,000 years to actually SAY that the Jews aren't responsible for Jesus' death. 2,000 years vs. what...10?

                        Originally posted by Wednesday View Post
                        I find in heathenry that the message isn't eally that dissimilar to the one you're providing here. This is the world; we live in it, other people live in it, try not to be a total sh*thead. There isn't an eternal reward, there's no personal salvation. It is what it is. There's no plan, no god who created us for some special purpose, there's just life so try to live it with a little dignity. It's a way of taking...science, really, and just making the best of it. The universe was created from the Big Bang, fine...how can I just live decently and take care of mine?
                        I have no complaint with this, but I fail to see how it ties to religion. I don't want to try to put words into your mouth, so I'll stop there :P

                        Originally posted by Wednesday View Post
                        I guess I'm not looking for my religion to be right. I don't need answers to any big questions. I'm not worried about where I'll go. That's not the point. Heathenry basically says you build your future, your choices affect those who will come after you.
                        I guess what I'm missing here: Why is this a "heathen" belief, as opposed to just "the way it is"? What part of it being Heathen is important to you?

                        Dammit...I'm not explaining very well. I'll try again...sorry for the disjointedness, I'm at work

                        Obviously you associate that level of morality and ethics to be Heathen in nature - if that's what you're getting from the religion. I'm curious as to why those same ideals, how to treat people, etc, need to come from a religion instead of just drawing a conclusion...does that make sense? (I know, I sound like a total douchbag...I'm not trying to )

                        Originally posted by Wednesday View Post
                        What I do today will influence the lives of my descendants two thousand years from now. That's not a belief, that's fact. I'm intimately tied to the future, I create it, it's my life continuining on and my life is the life story of my first ancestor. There's no right or wrong.
                        I agree wholeheartedly
                        Originally posted by Wednesday View Post
                        Science is just a part of it, not an enemy to it, basically. Science tells me my choices, heatherny is the philosophy that enables me to pick the most responsible one.
                        I don't believe that Science and Religion have to be at odds with each other, but I *do* believe that they are both playing very different games.

                        ---------- Post added at 11:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:41 PM ----------

                        Originally posted by Gardenia View Post
                        It's a hard question for me to answer, because it's not really that science is failing to give me something, it's just that I see it as one tool to know and explore the world around me while my spirituality is another. One isn't better than the other, they both give me similar things - just in different ways. Take either away, and I would feel as if something was missing.
                        (I want to stress that "I" there, because I don't feel that the "Atheists of the world are missing something" or any other group who doesn't think the exact same way that I do...)

                        I'm not sure if that makes sense, so let's take one example of something I would say my religion gives me - a connection to/understanding of/appreciation of nature. Well, it's not that science doesn't give me that, I certainly get all that about nature when I study it from a scientific standpoint. So perhaps it's better to say religion gives me a deeper understanding and connection to nature. If the question were put in reverse (what doesn't religion do for you?) the answer would be the same.
                        Then again, it's not just those two things - as another example, art can give me those three things as well...

                        It's the same for anything else I can think of - for whatever I think religion gives me, science seems to as well, just in different ways usually. Likewise, it's not just those two which provide me with (whatever).
                        So, what doesn't science do for me? It only gives me the scientific way to look at things (which makes sense!), it only gives me one tool out of several that I like to use.
                        Now we're cooking with grease - what tools does religion give you access to?

                        Originally posted by Gardenia View Post
                        Now as to all this...

                        I can agree with this - but both on the level of science and spirituality. Neither makes me "special" and both provide me with a way of judging my life's progress, so to speak.


                        In the end, yes, you will have to accept or reject the information, but it doesn't have to be done on blind faith.
                        I have to interject here - at what point are you given the opportunity to validate or invalidate what you have learned with religion? By what gauge is the "fact" or "fiction" measured?

                        Originally posted by Gardenia View Post
                        I find religion provides tools with which to judge such things. Yep, it's certainly more subjective - but I guess I don't see that as necessarily a bad thing.
                        Subjective information is not invalid information - I don't believe for an instant that subjective reasoning is useless. I will say, however, that I know enough about how our bodies and brains flat-out LIE to us (either with our senses, ignorance in a variety of different areas, misunderstandings, what I ate for breakfast, etc) to not trust it so much.


                        Originally posted by Gardenia View Post
                        Obviously I am not a Christian, but you know, wouldn't most Christians say that the Bible is the word of God and of course God is smarter?
                        So's Sherlock Holmes. Which do you think I believe has more of a foundation in reality?

                        But this actually allows me to elaborate on the point (just in case someone missed it). In the case of the Bible, the assumption is that the Word comes from God, to Man, and Man records God's Word for Mankind. So we have God --> Man --> Print. Now, this is just for illustrative purposes, but the expectation is that I trust what's on paper because it came from God...but I don't know who wrote it. They may have been insane, rich, eccentric, or just a fiction author. Nobody knows. And even if we could go back and meet these people, the original SOURCE is questionable, since we have no proof of the existence of God. So for someone to believe the Bible, they are actually reading (and trusting) 3rd, 4th, or 5th-person heresay. Oftentimes these same people won't believe you if you tell them a fantastic story that happened directly to YOU...but they find it easy to trust someone that died 1500+ years ago. </ramble>

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Re: What doesn't science do for you?

                          Religion quite simply answers questions and poses ways of looking at the world that science can't, by its every nature, possibly hope to do--much less meaningfully. Though, I suspect that my conception of religion is fairly broad, and well beyond that of a belief in deity and the practices centered around it.
                          Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                          sigpic

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Re: What doesn't science do for you?

                            Originally posted by DanieMarie View Post
                            Sorry Rok....I can't speak for others but my rant wasn't about you at all. It's just that I have some atheist, science fan friends who get a bit judgmental about religion and every time the subject comes up that comes up too. Didn't mean to imply that everyone was the same.
                            I understand, Danie - I just wanted to nip things in the bud before the thread became an anti-Atheist rant (in general)...especially since that wasn't the intent of my initial post

                            Originally posted by DanieMarie View Post
                            I guess, one thing I can say that science definitely doesn't give me given the criteria you posted is that sometimes, I'm so lonely. I mean, I have friends and family, but the majority of my time, I'm really alone. I can't really do things spontaneously unless I'm prepared to go alone, can only really travel alone, etc. But when I pray, or do rituals, or meditate, I feel like I'm not so alone.
                            Perfect! And this, IMNSHO, is probably true for a good number of spiritual believers. I know that solitude and lonliness played a big part in Christianity and Paganism both for me. Being alone is tough...it's REALLY tough. It's hard to not feel locked into your own head when other people have the key.

                            Science...you're right...can't do a whole lot to change that. We all know that personal change has to happen personally If you're interested, I DO (believe it or not) have access to some scientific studies/articles that may help you, but probably not in the way that you'd like them to - but they could go some way to explaining the biology/chemistry behind your approach, and could offer some directions to go in to "fix" them. Unfortunately, the only way you can really avoid being alone is to be with someone else (that's the part that *I* always hated about not being alone )

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Re: What doesn't science do for you?

                              Originally posted by Roknrol View Post

                              I'm not sure if I have this straight, so please don't take this offensively: Do you feel that science neglects things like morality and ethics?
                              Science, by nature, isn't ethical or moral. To imply it is, one would have to recognize an initial judgement made of what was good and bad. That would imply rational thought and that would be against the very basis of atheism. Good and bad are relative value judgements informed by culture which in turn is informed by that past, which itself is steeped in religion. Scientists/people apply the morals and ethics to what they learn and these morals and ethics are reflective of their worldview...a worldview that is a relative value judgement informed by culture. And so on and so forth.

                              Science doesn't care if you murder someone. Science doesn't care if a young pregnant mother is killed in a car crash. People care, and people care because they have some sense of right and wrong. The only true atheist, then, would maybe be the sociopath.

                              Do you feel that religion gives you a better "moral compass" than the standard "treat others as you'd like to be treated" that most of us are raised believing (regardless of religious beliefs)?
                              Even the atheist who says you should treat others as you'd like to be treated is, in some way, an expression of a worldview/religion. The general reasoning behind that saying is so that people will treat each other right, so that we have peace, fairness etc etc. Science would tell you to evolve to be the strongest and to take out any threats to your resources and only band together to assist survival until survival isn't an option in numbers. It's only urge is survival. There's no grand plan, no sense of justice, no right and no wrong. My moral compass isn't better, it's just an inevitable part of the human experience.

                              Unless you're an Atheist, I don't think you're particularly qualified to make that determination
                              Heh. Well, since not ALL atheists are in prison I think it's a fair assumption that atheists, to some degree, generally follow the social codes of their culture (i.e murder, rape), without me going to OTT with semantic qualifiers.


                              For the record, I follow the laws that I choose to follow, and my "moral compass" is primarily a result of my experiences and the realization that if I treat someone in a manner that I don't want to be treated, I've lost the right to bitch when someone else treats me the same way.

                              *snip*

                              Actually, there IS a huge difference, since religion isn't held accountable for what they teach. Science is, as is evidenced by the earlier links about Autism. As a counterexample, it took the Catholic church 2,000 years to actually SAY that the Jews aren't responsible for Jesus' death. 2,000 years vs. what...10?

                              *Shrug* You could just kill them. Most people won't, though, because it's wrong and morally incorrect. But why is it morally incorrect? If science didn't want you to kill people then why is it possible? My point about following laws is that we each chose to navigate our existence in this world in the best way possible while maintaining some degree of happiness. Science gives us the options to do this while a cultural worldview directs our moral responsibility. Our current culture is, by majority, Christian. Any atheist currently existing in America, responsibly, is adhereing to a religious worldview regardless. Their decisions are generally informed by this religious culture. I, personally, cannot destroy my moral compass and live solely by science, disregarding all cultural laws, so I chose a religion that informs my choices within a different worldview. And I think that moral compass is, for the most part, inherent in us. It generally goes against the rational science.




                              I guess what I'm missing here: Why is this a "heathen" belief, as opposed to just "the way it is"? What part of it being Heathen is important to you?
                              It doesn't matter if it's heathen or not, really. I could give a thousand examples as to why I believe Heimdallr (in some metaphysical, metaphorical way) will blow his horn at Ragnarok and be told there's no proof. But yet, most atheists won't go shoot an infant in the head (ignoring laws for the time) even though there's no proof that science says one shouldn't. It just is. And I like to color that "just is" with a worldview that I find especially pleasing. Because science isn't enough.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Re: What doesn't science do for you?

                                So many long answers, so short in my opinion. Science and religion are the same. Some things just haven't been proven, yet.
                                Sleep, my friend, and you will see
                                That dream is my reality

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X