Same Sex Marriage

[Medusa]

Re: Same Sex Marriage

I want the government involved somehow or another. Because people can't seem to be civil or sane when divorcing. They've proven they need some help.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Same Sex Marriage

[quote author=Medusa link=topic=259.msg2930#msg2930 date=1287118931]
I want the government involved somehow or another. Because people can't seem to be civil or sane when divorcing. They've proven they need some help.
[/quote]

So true.

[pihlaja]

Re: Same Sex Marriage

[quote author=DanieMarie link=topic=259.msg2692#msg2692 date=1287086637]
What sort of bothers me about it is that here, we have separate marriage and civil unions for gays and lesbians, but the civil union doesn't quite hold all the same rights as a marriage. If it did, I wouldn't hold issue...but I think that when you call it something different, it doesn't really become the same thing.
[/quote]

In Finland it's the same situation: We have the marriage for straight couples and then the civil union for the gay and lesbian couples. But for example adoption is allowed only to ones who are married (even though nowadays I think gays and lesbians can have adoption inside the family.. like if the other one already has children, the other one can adopt them, but I don't think that's enough).

There's also another problem in this separation: Having different names for these juridical agreements shows there's inequality. Pretty much the same as we'd say that some men can be called as fathers and some cannot for some reason or another - no matter how same the situation is in practical level is, there's still this symbolic separation.

Also for example when you apply for a job or such, you might get asked your relationship status in some forms or such; then if you're in civil union, people automaticly know that your a gay or lesbian and there are still and probably always will be people with prejudices or you have to lie in the form. Both are problematic options.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Same Sex Marriage

[quote author=pihlaja link=topic=259.msg2986#msg2986 date=1287135325]
In Finland it's the same situation: We have the marriage for straight couples and then the civil union for the gay and lesbian couples. But for example adoption is allowed only to ones who are married (even though nowadays I think gays and lesbians can have adoption inside the family.. like if the other one already has children, the other one can adopt them, but I don't think that's enough).

There's also another problem in this separation: Having different names for these juridical agreements shows there's inequality. Pretty much the same as we'd say that some men can be called as fathers and some cannot for some reason or another - no matter how same the situation is in practical level is, there's still this symbolic separation.

Also for example when you apply for a job or such, you might get asked your relationship status in some forms or such; then if you're in civil union, people automaticly know that your a gay or lesbian and there are still and probably always will be people with prejudices or you have to lie in the form. Both are problematic options.
[/quote]

Yeah totally.

I'm against having info such as marital status and birthdays on job applications anyway. I think both allow for all sorts of (mostly unconscious) discrimination. In North America and a lot of other European countries, you're not allowed to ask that stuff, or ask for photos, but in others such as Germany they want to know all that stuff about you. I'm hoping things will change here...there have been all sorts of studies about discrimination in job applications recently. They're testing anonymous applications, where the name, age, and marital status is hidden during the first application phase. Normally I'd say that you could show your name, but unfortunately here it's been pretty much proven that if you have a "foreign" name you're something like 50% less likely to get a job, so until people learn to stop being so unconsciously racist I guess that's how it has to be.

[pihlaja]

Re: Same Sex Marriage

[quote author=DanieMarie link=topic=259.msg2993#msg2993 date=1287136614]
In North America and a lot of other European countries, you're not allowed to ask that stuff, or ask for photos, but in others such as Germany they want to know all that stuff about you.
[/quote]

You can't really ask them here either but the emploers still sort of expect you to tell if you're married or not etc. in you application or in the interview I think. It's illegal to ask, but if you don't tell about those, I assume many employers think you're hiding something unfavorable from them.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Same Sex Marriage

[quote author=pihlaja link=topic=259.msg3015#msg3015 date=1287145472]
You can't really ask them here either but the emploers still sort of expect you to tell if you're married or not etc. in you application or in the interview I think. It's illegal to ask, but if you don't tell about those, I assume many employers think you're hiding something unfavorable from them.
[/quote]

Yeah same here. But the idea now is part of an EU-wide initiative to not even expect it. I hope it happens. Not because I have anything to hide, but 1) I don't like putting photos on my job applications. Usually my looks -do- help me in stuff like that, a) I don't want that to be the reason I've been invited to an interview, and b) It hasn't happened to me a lot, but I have been perved at handing in my resume or at interviews. I also look younger than I am, and I don't want that to influence anything either. I never put my photo on my application unless it's for a hostessing or acting job (in which case a headshot is reasonable to include). I figure if they're not ok with that, it's not the sort of company I want to work for anyway. Thankfully there are more people that are thinking the same thing, so I wouldn't be the only applicant that didn't.
I also disagree with putting ages on applications, because while it's not an issue for me, there is an EXCESSIVE amount of ageism in this country, and it's flat-out stupid. If you want to change careers (not jobs within an industry, but try something new) past your mid-30's, you can forget it. If you decide you don't like the field you're in, too bad...you're probably stuck there until retirement.
And I fail to see how my marital status is relevant to any employer. I also think it's a problem because married women are perceived as a "problem" because they might take time off to have kids or whatever, which is stupid because single people can have kids too. I think at least this is helped by paternity leave and the fact that there are a large number of men taking advantage of it.

[Ophidia]

Re: Same Sex Marriage

[quote author=pihlaja link=topic=259.msg3015#msg3015 date=1287145472]
You can't really ask them here either but the emploers still sort of expect you to tell if you're married or not etc. in you application or in the interview I think. It's illegal to ask, but if you don't tell about those, I assume many employers think you're hiding something unfavorable from them.
[/quote]

From my experience here in the states, employers do ask for marital status due to benefits and also a point of contact. You don't have to automatically include your spouse as an emergency contact - you can use another family member... but unless you're married to someone or they are your legal dependent, you can't get insurance benefits for say, a friend of the family. In some cases, you can't add someone as a beneficiary of death benefits unless they're a spouse or dependent, either.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Same Sex Marriage

[quote author=perzephone link=topic=259.msg3032#msg3032 date=1287153389]
From my experience here in the states, employers do ask for marital status due to benefits and also a point of contact. You don't have to automatically include your spouse as an emergency contact - you can use another family member... but unless you're married to someone or they are your legal dependent, you can't get insurance benefits for say, a friend of the family. In some cases, you can't add someone as a beneficiary of death benefits unless they're a spouse or dependent, either.
[/quote]

Yeah but that's when you're already employed, right? I don't think it matters for applications.....

I don't have a problem with them knowing any of that stuff about me when I'm already employed there, but I think personal info that's irrelevant to a job shouldn't be included on an application.

[Ophidia]

Re: Same Sex Marriage

[quote author=DanieMarie link=topic=259.msg3042#msg3042 date=1287154488]
Yeah but that's when you're already employed, right? I don't think it matters for applications.....

I don't have a problem with them knowing any of that stuff about me when I'm already employed there, but I think personal info that's irrelevant to a job shouldn't be included on an application.
[/quote]

Apparently, since I just did some research, in the US under the Federal Equal Employment Opportunity Laws (http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/qanda.html), it is illegal for an employer to base hiring, firing or other employment-based decisions on marital status. So it may not be legal for employers to include marital status on a job application, even though I know I've been asked. I knew that asking a person's specific age beyond "Are you over 16/18" was a no-no, along with anything about religion or disabilities, but I didn't know that marital status was protected as well. Which is another good reason that, since hetero couples are protected by this, gays should be, too.

I've also read a couple of articles that say it's not illegal for an employer to ask those types of questions (because of freedom of speech and the equal freedoms of stupidity and ignorance), but what they do with the answers that is illegal. Of course, in those articles, they basically say, "Yeah, now you answered, try to prove that the employer didn't hire you because you're married/single/widowed/divorced".

[Sin]

Re: Same Sex Marriage

A friend posted this on fb this morning and this thread reminded me so I thought i would share
HOWEVER
if you are 100% against same sex marriage and are likely to get offended by the advertising of it.. this probably isnt a video for you
this also uses alot of swear words so not for the easily offended or the younger users!
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TMTrpugT0E&has_verified=1[/youtube]

[spartacandream]

Re: Same Sex Marriage

The government can always issue civil unions. I'd have no problem with calling it secular marriage, if the secular marriage we have today wasn't religionized like the term always becomes.

I don't personally want more than one husband, that shouldn't stop other from being polygamists/polyandrists though. Which happens even if we have secular marriage, because the moral views of the majority tend to be imposed on all when the state decides on it. So it's best to just let marriage stay religious, and make civil unions a legal issue.

[PharaohKatt]

Re: Same Sex Marriage

I think marriage should be between you, your partner/s and your deity/ies. Having "Marriage" as a formal ceremony would be good. All legal stuff can be handled as Civil Unions by the government.
And same-sex couples and poly couples should not be denied a Civil Union, assuming all parties are consenting adults.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Same Sex Marriage

I'm very proud of the fact that 0% of people polled here are against gay marriage!

[StellaMorganna]

Re: Same Sex Marriage

There is something I don't understand - what's people's problem with gay people? I am straight but I do have many gay friends and they are just as smart, nice, sweet people like all the others. I don't choose my friends depending on their looks, orientation or political views, so why does it bother others?

After all, we are all human beings, we have the right to choose and we all have feelings. If someone is gay and keeps his hands off my husband, I am perfectly OK with it. Same with gay women.

I don't think people who talk and act against gay people have ever considered the situation when their children may turn out to be gay. If my kid turns out to be gay, I don't want her being refused happiness only because she loves someone of her own gender.

[Ophidia]

Re: Same Sex Marriage

[quote author=StellaMorganna link=topic=259.msg4143#msg4143 date=1287385433]
There is something I don't understand - what's people's problem with gay people? I am straight but I do have many gay friends and they are just as smart, nice, sweet people like all the others. I don't choose my friends depending on their looks, orientation or political views, so why does it bother others?
[/quote]

There's a line in the Bible that states homosexuality is a sin.

Leviticus 18:22: Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Leviticus 20:13 repeats the above, adding a nice death penalty clause to it. There's an admonition in some translations involving Deuteronomy 23:17 prohibiting men from becoming Sodomites, but there's some confusion as to whether the verse actually means that no son of Israel can become a Sodomite (usually interpreted as a man who has sex w/other men) or if it's actually just saying no son of Israel can be a temple prostitute.