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Sex differences, equality, and dressing "provocatively"

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    Sex differences, equality, and dressing "provocatively"

    Wasn't quite sure where to put this - I'm not opposed to it becoming a debate. This is something that's been bugging me the past few days and I figured a community in which there are many who worship/draw upon the masculine and feminine energies might have some interesting things to say about the subject.

    First, the issue of dressing provocatively. This is nearly exclusively applied to women. Men who dress in a similar fashion are called "gross" or "d-bags," etc, but never "provocative." This is because many accept that women who wear tight clothes, short skirts, and/or low-cut tops are somehow provoking men. Men who wear clothing to show off their bodies, on the other hand, are never seen as provoking women. This line of thinking is dangerous and leads to the recent situation in the news in which a Canadian policeman told women to not dress "like sluts" in order to avoid being victimized. That policeman put the blame of rape on the victim. This is also even happening in the courts as well, much as it has for decades. This idea also leads to laws requiring women to wear a burka. It is as though the showing any skin is a provocation of all surrounding men.

    Because some men see what women wear as a provocation, they see it as their right to have a say in women's clothing choices. What sparked my outrage on this topic were some recent letters to my school's newspaper, in which some of my male classmates thought it was acceptable to complain about girls wearing leggings as pants to the dining hall, likening the experience to one in a strip club. While I do not think that "leggings as pants" is a good fashion choice, that is all it is. It is not a provocation, meant to distract my male classmates from their lunch. They have to accept sooner or later that they get no say in our fashion choices (especially one made for the dining hall, in which a girl rolls out of bed and puts something on in the dark so she can go eat breakfast). Men are not superior to women - they do not have the authority to tell women what to wear.

    The excuse sometimes used when men request that women dress more modestly is one of weakness. The idea is that men are powerless against feminine charms, while women are stronger in that they are not constantly distracted by sexual desires. Women should pity them and change the way they dress so that men can have an easier time respecting them. As men are not superior to women, nor are they inherently weaker (aside from lacking half a chromosome - but that is only biologically relevant in the womb and with sex-linked inherited diseases such as color blindness - it's got nothing to do with mental capacity). Men and women are both sexually driven. They desire equally and are equally capable of forgetting sex for a moment to study, work, and eat in peace.

    #2
    Re: Sex differences, equality, and dressing "provocatively"

    To be fair, males do have a particular predisposition to be distracted by the bodies of women. Like all predispositions though, indulging it is a conscious choice. More than that, most males take for granted that they have a certain freedom or right to stare at women, even though some women may object to this. If men have the right to stare, I think women have the right to show skin, and vice-versa.

    If it's true that courts are ruling against rape victims due to clothes, then that's ridiculous. In other words, wearing provocative clothing is an automatic consent to any and all sexual advances? Surely the consumers deserve a warning of this. By that precedent, short skirts and low-cut blouses should have a "may cause rape" disclaimer on them. The rape victims should be able to turn around and sue the clothing companies. The U.S. legal system being what it is, it might just work.
    Last edited by Yazichestvo; 09 Apr 2011, 11:28.
    If you want to be thought intelligent, just agree with everyone.

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      #3
      Re: Sex differences, equality, and dressing "provocatively"

      I completely and utterly think that someone (regardless of gender) has the right to wear whatever the heck they want. I also think that no one has the right to touch you without your consent, regardless of what you are (or are not) wearing, or what you look like, or how old you are, or how many people you have *been* with, etc. But I think its pretty damn dumb (as in unrealistic) to not think that you won't be treated according to how you dress (whether that be preppy, gangsta, slutty, etc)...and if you expect to be taken seriously, and fail to consider that...well, (IMO) thats just as much your own fault.
      Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
      sigpic

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        #4
        Re: Sex differences, equality, and dressing "provocatively"

        Originally posted by ThatKrazy View Post
        This line of thinking is dangerous and leads to the recent situation in the news in which a Canadian policeman told women to not dress "like sluts" in order to avoid being victimized.
        This really bothers me because it's not like the only women who are raped are dressed "provocatively." (And, of course, it's not like women are the only ones who are raped...) Covering women from head to toe is not going to stop rape, and I agree, it is a dangerous line of thinking that does nothing to actually stop the problem and help victims.
        Hearth and Hedge

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          #5
          Re: Sex differences, equality, and dressing "provocatively"

          First of all I am someone who firmly believes that a rapist should be executed regardless of what the victim was wearing.

          I find it ridiculous when people start debating what the victim was wearing when they are discussing if the rapist is guilty or not. It is as ridiculous as discussing what kind of security system you got at your home when discussing if the murderer who killed your wife in your own home should be punished or not.

          With all that said there's something important to mention here. While I don't think it's a woman's fault if she was raped in a dark alley, I don't believe it makes me a male chauvinist pig if I see a woman walk into a dark alley and then decide to walk with her in case something happens or at least advice her not to go in there. It makes no difference if I'm male or female, I'd still give her the same advice.

          I don't believe men are better than women, nor do I believe that woman are better than men. But I still believe men and women are not the same. We are different, and that is a fact.
          [4:82]

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            #6
            Re: Sex differences, equality, and dressing "provocatively"

            Originally posted by Yazichestvo View Post
            To be fair, males do have a particular predisposition to be distracted by the bodies of women.
            And women don't also have that for the male body? Do you really believe that the brains of men and women are wired that differently? Or do you believe it to be a case where society has given one gender permission to admit this, and the other not?

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              #7
              Re: Sex differences, equality, and dressing "provocatively"

              D ... How is the rate or frequency of rape where you are? ... I ask this because you are in an environment where more females have a bit more clothing than here ... And I agree as to the punishment ... But I would tend towards public hanging ...
              I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them ... John Bernard Books


              Indian Chief 'Two Eagles' was asked by a white government official; "You have observed the white man for 90 years. You've seen his wars and his technological advances. You've seen his progress, and the damage he's done."

              The Chief nodded in agreement.

              The official continued; "Considering all these events, in your opinion, where did the white man go wrong?"

              The Chief stared at the government official for over a minute and then calmly replied.. "When white man find land, Indians running it, no taxes, no debt, plenty buffalo, plenty beaver, clean water. Women did all the work, Medicine Man free. Indian man spend all day hunting and fishing; all night having sex."

              Then the chief leaned back and smiled; "Only white man dumb enough to think he could improve system like that."



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                #8
                Re: Sex differences, equality, and dressing "provocatively"

                Originally posted by ThatKrazy View Post
                And women don't also have that for the male body? Do you really believe that the brains of men and women are wired that differently? Or do you believe it to be a case where society has given one gender permission to admit this, and the other not?
                Honestly (and I am a lusty bisexual middle-aged woman with an active sex-life) when some man walks by me with his shirt unbuttoned down to his belly-button, wearing extremely tight pants... depending on the man in the clothing, I usually think a) He's gay or b) ewwwww, button your shirt, no one wants to see that! A guy in a decent pair of jeans and a non-Ed-Hardy t-shirt? Or maybe a cotton workshirt? A nice well-tailored suit? (Or possibly the UPS men's summer uniform?) Waaaay sexier than anything else. But no matter what the guy is wearing, I have never felt the overwhelming urge to run up to the guy and rub my body all over him.

                For some ungodly reason, clothes designed to be provocative for men just seem to have the opposite effect - they either make the man look effeminate (not that there's anything wrong with that - just see Johnny Depp or Prince for example) or like Quagmire from Family Guy. I don't know if there's some kind of disconnect between what myself & other women believe makes a man look sexy or if it's just that the fashion industry is clueless.

                I also work in an environment that is well-known for making grown people act like morons (a casino in Las Vegas), and I've never seen a group of women stop in their tracks, turn around and catcall, whistle or make sexist, sexually intimidating remarks when a good-looking man walks by them, not even the Spring Break crowd (some bachelorette parties may engage in that behavior, but we've got a male strip review for them to let loose in). So no, women don't respond to visual stimulation in quite the same way that men do.

                There's also been a growing trend (at least with most of America), with sex/gender awareness advocacy, greater protection for victims of rape and sexual harassment, feminism, and political correctness, that it's not acceptable for men to noticeably lose their minds when they see a woman wearing clothing that displays or accentuates her body.
                The forum member formerly known as perzephone. Or Perze. I've shed a skin.

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                  #9
                  Re: Sex differences, equality, and dressing "provocatively"

                  Persephone's right...there are some fundamental differences in hard-wiring, not just what is culturally acceptable. This is why porn is a multi-billion dollar industry, geared towards almost exclusively men.

                  I don't have evidence for this, but I've heard people say before that research has been done with rapists, asking what they look for, and what they found was slightly shocking: men who are looking to rape someone don't go after a woman who is all dressed up and exposing skin, because in most cases, that shows confidence. Instead, they are more likely to look for a woman who is mousy, or looks like she has low self-esteem (often combined with very long hair, making it easier to hold her down). Does anyone know if this is true or an urban legend? I'm not sure...especially since rape seems to cross race, age, and economic lines.
                  Great Grandmother's Kitchen

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                    #10
                    Re: Sex differences, equality, and dressing "provocatively"

                    It's really dodgy to be talking about people being "hard-wired" because it just isn't how our brains work. From the ages of birth to three, our brains are in a super-charged phase of growth, constantly creating more and more connections. Then, when wew hit three (or there abouts) the neurons which haven't been used enough die off (are culled). This happens again when we hit puberty.

                    Although those two times have the most amount of growth, the brain is constantly shifting and changing and growing. As we learn new things, our brains actually change shape. This is what is referred to as "brain plasticity".
                    It just doesn't make sense to say things are "hard wired" when we can actively change the shape of our own brains.
                    </derail>

                    Dressing provocatively does not cause rape because RAPE IS NOT ABOUT SEX. Rape is about power, sex is just the tool used to gain that power.
                    People who engage in this sort of victim-blaming, like that police officer did, also fail to remember that most rape doesnt happen in a dark alley by a stranger. Most people are raped by someone they know.

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                      #11
                      Re: Sex differences, equality, and dressing &quot;provocatively&quot;

                      Originally posted by DeseretRose View Post
                      I don't have evidence for this, but I've heard people say before that research has been done with rapists, asking what they look for, and what they found was slightly shocking: men who are looking to rape someone don't go after a woman who is all dressed up and exposing skin, because in most cases, that shows confidence. Instead, they are more likely to look for a woman who is mousy, or looks like she has low self-esteem (often combined with very long hair, making it easier to hold her down). Does anyone know if this is true or an urban legend? I'm not sure...especially since rape seems to cross race, age, and economic lines.
                      That falls under that sketchy science known as 'profiling'.

                      There's marital rape, date rape, rape by medical professionals, a growing increase (either in deed or in reporting to law or medical professionals) in group rapes, non-consensual sex with a person who is drunk or high - any form of coerced sex where one or more people involved is rape. It doesn't just occur between strangers where one is dragged off into a dark alley (and that's the rarest type of rape). Most rapes occur between people who know one another and are in familiar settings.
                      The forum member formerly known as perzephone. Or Perze. I've shed a skin.

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                        #12
                        Re: Sex differences, equality, and dressing &quot;provocatively&quot;

                        Originally posted by ThatKrazy
                        And women don't also have that for the male body? Do you really believe that the brains of men and women are wired that differently? Or do you believe it to be a case where society has given one gender permission to admit this, and the other not?
                        I can safely say that I have no problem with women whose brains are wired to be distracted by the bodies of guys the way men are by females. I'm dating one, after all. However, I'm under the impression that women like that aren't the majority. I also do not judge character based on scant clothing, or if I do, I am inclined to agree with DesertRose; it seems to exude confidence.
                        Last edited by Yazichestvo; 09 Apr 2011, 21:21. Reason: can't add quote?
                        If you want to be thought intelligent, just agree with everyone.

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                          #13
                          Re: Sex differences, equality, and dressing &quot;provocatively&quot;

                          Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                          I completely and utterly think that someone (regardless of gender) has the right to wear whatever the heck they want. I also think that no one has the right to touch you without your consent, regardless of what you are (or are not) wearing, or what you look like, or how old you are, or how many people you have *been* with, etc. But I think its pretty damn dumb (as in unrealistic) to not think that you won't be treated according to how you dress (whether that be preppy, gangsta, slutty, etc)...and if you expect to be taken seriously, and fail to consider that...well, (IMO) thats just as much your own fault.
                          I think that where the original poster is getting with this though is that attitudes towards how people dress is cultural and can change.

                          Just as an anecdote, despite the fact that Berlin has a very sexually liberal culture, it's actually more "modest" place when i comes to women's fashions. I've often been made to feel VERY uncomfortable wearing clothing that is pretty normal in Canada. Like last summer, it was 38 degrees Celsius outside, and I was wearing a sundress. It's a minidress, but the style is FAR from "slutty" (it's not -that- short and it's white and quite girly). Some guy just looked at me and said "nice blouse." It made me feel really uncomfortable somehow. People have really judgmental attitudes with showing femininity or ANY skin here. You'll see German girls in HOT summer heat wearing tights with their sandals I don't like how acceptable it is to just make rude comments at girls either. I think it shows bad taste and I think it's definitely coming from a time when women had less status.

                          Men don't HAVE to make comments at women for how they dress, even if it's something they find provocative. They can be taught that this isn't acceptable.

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                            #14
                            Re: Sex differences, equality, and dressing &quot;provocatively&quot;

                            Originally posted by perzephone View Post
                            That falls under that sketchy science known as 'profiling'.

                            There's marital rape, date rape, rape by medical professionals, a growing increase (either in deed or in reporting to law or medical professionals) in group rapes, non-consensual sex with a person who is drunk or high - any form of coerced sex where one or more people involved is rape. It doesn't just occur between strangers where one is dragged off into a dark alley (and that's the rarest type of rape). Most rapes occur between people who know one another and are in familiar settings.
                            Now THAT makes a lot of sense! Thanks for clarifying that, Perzephone!
                            Great Grandmother's Kitchen

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                              #15
                              Re: Sex differences, equality, and dressing &quot;provocatively&quot;

                              The idea that the way someone dresses reduces their right to say no in a sexual situation is a logic I just cannot get my head round. If I dress 'provocatively' then it could reasonably be argued that, yes, I am specifically going out with the intention of finding someone to have sex with and using my clothes (or lack of) to draw attention to that fact. But don't I still have the right to decide who that someone is!?

                              I agree that rape is about power and not sex. And it is about taking away someone's right to say no, a right which doesn't go away because I have decided to wear a short skirt.
                              http://thefeministpagan.blogspot.co.uk/

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