Have men and women reached equality?

[DanieMarie]

Have men and women reached equality? As in, not that men and women are seen as being exactly the same, but that they have equal opportunities, receive the same salaries for the same jobs, have the same social status and the same level of choice? Do we still have a ways to go? Should we reach this kind of equality?

[thalassa]

Re: Have men and women reached equality?

No.

Men and women will have reached equality when a woman is elected Pope or allowed to go thru BUDS, men and women can be friends without accusations of cheating and assumptions of being in a relationship, and a man can punch a woman in the face without someone assuming that he's beating his wife.

[Roknrol]

Re: Have men and women reached equality?

No. There will be no such thing as equality between the sexes and the races until people stop insisting that the differences are nominal. There is a huge rift between how men view men and how men view women, and vice versa.

As far as whether we should? Fuck, if someone is capable of DOING a job? They should get paid the same wage for doing it. But then again, there have been plenty of jobs that I worked at where I was making less money than people that were doing less work, so take that for what it's worth.

As far as equal opportunities go - those are there. A woman might go somewhere for a job and not get hired because she's not a man, but I've been denied employment before because I *AM* a man, so it seems about as equal as it's going to get. Of course, there are individuals that don't feel that equality is the way to go, and sometimes those individuals have jobs that can prevent a business from having equality, but that's where my first comment comes in

[DanieMarie]

Re: Have men and women reached equality?

As far as equal opportunities go - those are there. A woman might go somewhere for a job and not get hired because she's not a man, but I've been denied employment before because I *AM* a man, so it seems about as equal as it's going to get. Of course, there are individuals that don't feel that equality is the way to go, and sometimes those individuals have jobs that can prevent a business from having equality, but that's where my first comment comes in

Yeah I feel that the US (and Canada) is better for this. Germany is a bit lagging, and up until VERY recently, it was fairly socially unacceptable for mothers to work still. I've had quite a few female friends who have not gotten jobs because they're women and "might have kids." I think it's changing, but it doesn't mean that there aren't still problems (at least here). I think the recently instated paternity leave might help, because men can take time off too (and are actually incentivized to do it...a couple gets extra time if the man takes a couple of months of leave). That being said, it's not like women don't work or don't have good jobs, it's just that the glass ceiling is just a bit more present than I was used to seeing back in Canada.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Have men and women reached equality?

Where I live, in the south wales valleys, it was a traditionally male dominated society.... with one BIG exception. The Welsh Mam. Welsh Mams tend to rule. If there's a fight at the local supermarket, the security guard tends to hide and the female checkout staff sort it out with a 'I'm telling your MAM on you!'
It's quite funny to see grown lads skulking away at that.
Some years ago I remember a group of lads used to get together not far from where I lived - they seemed a very rough and ready lot. And then I heard one of them say, 'Sorry, butt (which means friend in welsh, not the US meaning ) gotta go now.'
'Why so early?' asked one of his mates.
'Mam doesn't like me being late for my tea...'
'Yeah, I'd better be going too....'

[DanieMarie]

Re: Have men and women reached equality?

Where I live, in the south wales valleys, it was a traditionally male dominated society.... with one BIG exception. The Welsh Mam. Welsh Mams tend to rule. If there's a fight at the local supermarket, the security guard tends to hide and the female checkout staff sort it out with a 'I'm telling your MAM on you!'
It's quite funny to see grown lads skulking away at that.
Some years ago I remember a group of lads used to get together not far from where I lived - they seemed a very rough and ready lot. And then I heard one of them say, 'Sorry, butt (which means friend in welsh, not the US meaning ) gotta go now.'
'Why so early?' asked one of his mates.
'Mam doesn't like me being late for my tea...'
'Yeah, I'd better be going too....'

Haha I met a guy here in the US army a few years ago, and he was telling a story about growing up in Brooklyn that was kind of like that. He was African American and lived in a predominantly African American and Italian neighbourhood, and he said that the Italian grannies were sort of like that. He was like "they'll all be kind of thugs, but then some little old Italian lady comes out and yells at them and they'll be scared. I'm not scared of thugs with guns, but those ladies SCARE me!"

[Ophidia]

Re: Have men and women reached equality?

I can't say it about anywhere else in the country, but Las Vegas is still extremely sexist. The labor unions & labor board have been fighting, relatively unsuccessfully, about height/weight/appearance clauses in employment for female staff members that aren't imposed on male staff members, as well as the overtly sexual nature of attire for female staff members in various establishments. A lot of places get by because they classify their cocktail waitresses as 'entertainment staff' which places them outside the normal food & beverage server rules. It is kind of a double-edged sword, though - you don't see very many (if any) male cocktail waiters - and cocktail servers do make a substantial amount of money if they get decently busy shifts. I guess they feel having a higher proportion of male valet and bell attendants makes up for it, especially since the guys do all the 'heavy lifting'.

There are still numerous reports that pop up of women only getting preferable shifts based on if they're willing to sleep with the supervisors responsible for scheduling; older or less attractive employees ending up on shifts that don't earn as much in tips (and using the lack of tipping as a reason to give them poor performance reviews so they can be fired). Today, just as much as in the 50s & 60s, being a female employee in Las Vegas pretty much means you have to be able to handle sexual harassment at many different levels, from customers to management - and you have to like it.

[Taiga Pagan]

Re: Have men and women reached equality?

There no such thing as true equality in Nature. It's an idealistic idea! But, if you would ask, if we reached similar standard of living and working, in my country and most western civilizations? Then the answer would be a relative yes. Other parts of the world, I do not know, cuz information is very biased.

Equality, in the sense you have been taught is too perfect. And perfection is not found in precision of construction, but in understanding why imperfection exists and how suppressing it would cause more harm than intended. It's right in front you, in each detail.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Have men and women reached equality?

I dunno though. Like, women don't have it as equal here as they do in Canada. I had this debate with one of my friends from Canada and he just didn't get it, because there are just a lot more women in high positions in Canada. Sure, we have a woman chancellor, but we have a lot fewer women in political positions in general and we have fewer women in important business positions.

And the income gap is larger in Germany than Canada.

I don't think it's 100% there in Canada either, just from a woman's perspective. I think on a lot of levels there are a lot of double standards and we still get objectified a lot.

[Medusa]

Re: Have men and women reached equality?

When men get periods and pop out babies...then I'll think about that equal nonsense.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Have men and women reached equality?

When men get periods and pop out babies...then I'll think about that equal nonsense.

Mr Penry suffered morning sickness and labour pains (I kid you not) so maybe we're getting there!

[cesara]

Re: Have men and women reached equality?

And the income gap is larger in Germany than Canada.

I don't think it's 100% there in Canada either, just from a woman's perspective. I think on a lot of levels there are a lot of double standards and we still get objectified a lot.

I am in the midst of a social work course and the last statistics I came across in relation to income was that, on average, women earned .75 on the dollar for the exact same job a man does.....Canada still has a long way to go!

[DanieMarie]

Re: Have men and women reached equality?

I am in the midst of a social work course and the last statistics I came across in relation to income was that, on average, women earned .75 on the dollar for the exact same job a man does.....Canada still has a long way to go!

Still? It seemed better, but maybe I was wrong :/ Attitudes are so much better so maybe it just makes it seem like it's different. The way I feel about here is that a lot of women feel that women are equals, but there are quite a few men (NOT everyone....that would just be unfair to say!) who do not. I have a few male acquaintances who have said some pretty disgusting things.

[Roknrol]

Re: Have men and women reached equality?

Remember, that's an average. I'd be willing to bet that most businesses offer fair pay.

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: Have men and women reached equality?

Haha I met a guy here in the US army a few years ago, and he was telling a story about growing up in Brooklyn that was kind of like that. He was African American and lived in a predominantly African American and Italian neighbourhood, and he said that the Italian grannies were sort of like that. He was like "they'll all be kind of thugs, but then some little old Italian lady comes out and yells at them and they'll be scared. I'm not scared of thugs with guns, but those ladies SCARE me!"

Hahahaha I think that was MY old neighborhood! I grew up in Brooklyn and my Italian grandmother lived with us. Your friend was absolutely right!