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    Just some experiences...


    #2
    Re: Just some experiences...

    Being in nature definatly has that effect on alot of people. Nice to see you post!

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      #3
      Re: Just some experiences...

      Originally posted by Amber View Post
      Being in nature definatly has that effect on alot of people. Nice to see you post!
      Absolutely. I think also that manual work has the same effect too sometimes, especially if you've been kind of spoiled like me. The exhaustion and the sweat plus the earthiness of it all kind of comes together.

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        #4
        Re: Just some experiences...

        It definatly gives you an appreciation for life that's for sure

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          #5
          Re: Just some experiences...

          The Earth is your home. Your body and mind evolved here, and so what is here is what fits you best. When you look out at a beautiful world, and have an aesthetic experience, it's your body recognizing this. There's certainly nothing wrong with cities; they're as natural as mountains, in a way, and they can be extremely beautiful in their own right, but most of us still get that very deep, gut level reaction to "natural" beauty

          Whether this is interpreted as a religious experience or not depends on the one having the experience - it can be either, or both, or neither - and not every single person on Earth experiences it. But that it's there, for most of us? A person would be a fool to deny it...
          Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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            #6
            Re: Just some experiences...

            Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
            The Earth is your home. Your body and mind evolved here, and so what is here is what fits you best. When you look out at a beautiful world, and have an aesthetic experience, it's your body recognizing this. There's certainly nothing wrong with cities; they're as natural as mountains, in a way, and they can be extremely beautiful in their own right, but most of us still get that very deep, gut level reaction to "natural" beauty

            Whether this is interpreted as a religious experience or not depends on the one having the experience - it can be either, or both, or neither - and not every single person on Earth experiences it. But that it's there, for most of us? A person would be a fool to deny it...
            I think what I'm trying to ponder on the most is that it is very useful to have a framework I guess. I know plenty of atheists (I belong to freethought organizations, participate in events and forums, etc.) who can gracefully and painlessly use a scientific and materialist worldview to interact with the world around them. One very close friend in particular sees so much wonder in the world that she could put any Druid or Evangelical to shame in the waxing poetic about existence game. She does not, however, use any tool to frame her discourse outside of the bounds of rational and logical scientific approaches. It's just amazing. For me, I think that sometimes I do miss a framework of spiritual vocabulary when I interact with the world around me, particularly with people and with the natural world. It isn't that science isn't "enough" for me, it's just that I would enjoy a different tool-box of words and images to work with, along the strain of archetypal images and the like. I know that many Neopagans are pantheistic, animistic or even a sort of Campbellian sexed-up atheist when it comes to views on divinity or deities. It is this kind of work that I am feeling drawn to--using these ancient images and vocabularies as an aid to living a more enjoyable life.

            And I know that this could present some issues. I mean, if I build a little shrine in my room or an altar and I see the images or objects I choose, I can know in a very deep sense that there is nothing truly "magical" about it in my belief. I can now that the prayers aren't literally heard or the incense enjoyed in any literal sense, but I do think that by speaking the words and smelling the smoke and taking time to try and connect with something that in the end is just myself at my core is not something I'm willing to discard as easily as I once thought I was. Feeling devotion to a particular form of deity without literally believing in him/her/it doesn't seem as difficult as I once thought it was. It seems more now than ever as something immensely pleasing and self-satisfying.

            I'm rambling again, and it is late but I think some of what I'm saying is coherent. It's the ritual and the introspection I miss. And I miss it most of all when it is framed in the garb of spirituality. I'm still not sure if I'm there, but I'm moving slowly towards it. Perhaps in the end I can be like my close friend and the materialist and logical worldview will still spark something in me, but I might not. For the first time in a while, I'm actually enjoying being a little fuddled. It's nice to feel uprooted every once in a while--it staves off stagnation I suppose.

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              #7
              Re: Just some experiences...

              I think the important thing, Frankophonic, is to follow this thinking for a while and see how it goes. A valid path leads somewhere, an invalid one tends to peter out or hit a brick wall. But that doesn't mean that the journey was a waste of time because it wasn't. It did benefit you, even if you might not recognise this for many years.
              Never be afraid of making mistakes, they're often the best way to learn.
              www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


              Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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                #8
                Re: Just some experiences...

                Your religion or lack thereof is between you and your God(s), and nobody else.

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                  #9
                  Re: Just some experiences...

                  Agree with both your comments. If I did rekindle some spirituality, I would definitely prefer it private and solitary. When I was a Catholic, so much of it (especially on holy days in the Church at Mass) were about image and group-think. It seemed like we were trying so desperately to let the deity show through the skin, so to speak. This might just have been due to the fact that my Catholic church was in a heavily Evangelical area where Catholicism is seen as the Whore of Babylon so maybe the uber-Catholic thing came as a defense mechanism for that congregation.

                  The one thing that keeps coming up like a giant wall is the undeniable question: am I seeking truth, or just things that I want to be true? I like rationality, I love the Enlightenment and I appreciate the hardnosed search for truth that comes with most Atheistic philosophies I come across (well, outside the Church of Rand :P, no offense to any Objectivists who might be reading). For a while now, I've been one of those people who definitely hold to the saying that truth is not a majority vote. I always think we should be aware that what we think we know and what is true may have a giant chasm between them. But, a lot of Neopagans I have met hold to this too and are almost joyous to admit a well-formed base of agnosticism underlying everything. I really, really like that.

                  And I will not lie, there are some things about Neopagans and the general Pagan and Wiccan/Witch community that does rub me the wrong way. I don't want to attack anyone here again like I did before, but I do feel a certain twitch when people tell me that they believe in literal faeries or dragons or thoughtforms. BUT, and this is a big but, I think that most of the general Pagan community have evolved a very different sort of spirtuality than most mainstream religions in the sense that a lot of them see their path as a very subjective thing that is capable of accepting science, using a more psychological approach to belief than a literal one and interacting with their enviornment with respect and awareness. I'm not trying to be sycophantic because this is a Pagan forum, but Neopaganism really does seem to me to be one of the healthiest religious groups floating out in the ether of our world, which is filled to the brim with much darker interpretations of the divine with seriously negative consequences.

                  But I cannot keep but come back to one thing: what makes me happy? What's going to get me through the day and not harm anyone else in the process (a problem I believe comes up in a lot of ready-to-convert your friends religions)? I do a lot of irrational things in the day to get me through it and plenty science-informed people are still willing to admit that a bit of cognitive dissonance and irrationality are hardwired into us and perhaps actually beneficial. I don't know. I just wanted to engage in that unavoidable sin of writing about what you're going through on the internet. Just...can't quit it.

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                    #10
                    Re: Just some experiences...

                    There is nothing wrong with seeking the truth, Frankophonic, it's an admirable quality trait. (And I speak as one of those whose experience has lead her to believe in a range of things, including fairies, dragons and thought forms.... but I don't expect others to believe them simply because I say so.) For me - and I can only speak here for myself - the important thing is that I didn't come to believe in them on a whim, but becuase of my own experiences (which are going to be difference from everyone else's). I accept that. Believe me, the first time I saw fairies was a very weird experience because I didn't WANT to believe in them. It was much easier not to, especially since the ones I saw were just like those in picture books. A weird, wild fairy was one thing. A fairy that looked as though it had stepped straight out of an Atkinson Grimshaw fairy painting (which I hadn't even seen at the time) was quite another!

                    So....seeking the truth is no bad thing. As long as you recognise that when you find it, there will always be those who won't believe you, who will claim that it is 'only' your truth and not theirs. But that's no bad thing either. Maybe it's your truth for a reason, because that is something you need to know at this moment in time and the other person doesn't.

                    Remember too, that science doesn't always have a monopoly on truth. Their truth is not always 'constant'. Not so very long ago it was claimed that multiple sclerosis was a painless disease, even though patients (who ought to know) were telling doctors how painful it was. We now know that patients were right and 'experts' were wrong.

                    Do your best. KNow yourself. And enjoy the journey!
                    www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                    Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Just some experiences...

                      Originally posted by frankophonic View Post
                      Agree with both your comments. If I did rekindle some spirituality, I would definitely prefer it private and solitary. When I was a Catholic, so much of it (especially on holy days in the Church at Mass) were about image and group-think. It seemed like we were trying so desperately to let the deity show through the skin, so to speak. This might just have been due to the fact that my Catholic church was in a heavily Evangelical area where Catholicism is seen as the Whore of Babylon so maybe the uber-Catholic thing came as a defense mechanism for that congregation.
                      I had the same issues in my Christian churches - it always seemed like everyone was vying to be the "most holy" or "most special" or whatever. Truth be told, I see this a LOT in Pagan circles as well.

                      Originally posted by frankophonic View Post
                      The one thing that keeps coming up like a giant wall is the undeniable question: am I seeking truth, or just things that I want to be true?
                      Does it matter? More on this in a moment

                      Originally posted by frankophonic View Post
                      I like rationality, I love the Enlightenment and I appreciate the hardnosed search for truth that comes with most Atheistic philosophies I come across (well, outside the Church of Rand :P, no offense to any Objectivists who might be reading). For a while now, I've been one of those people who definitely hold to the saying that truth is not a majority vote. I always think we should be aware that what we think we know and what is true may have a giant chasm between them. But, a lot of Neopagans I have met hold to this too and are almost joyous to admit a well-formed base of agnosticism underlying everything. I really, really like that.
                      I have always bowed to science in matters where science knew the facts and (prior to becoming an Atheist, at any rate) allowed religion to fill in any and all of the gaps outside of that area. Now, the more science I've learned, the less I've *cared* about things of a spiritual nature, so it sounds to me like I'm leaving the place that you're trying to get to

                      <points into the past> That's the way you wanna go

                      Back to the question: Does it matter?

                      This is something that I've been thinking about a bit lately myself, but I think an analogy is in order to better express the idea. Let's take a step back to a time when the Universe revolved around the planet Earth. Now, we all know today that such a time period never existed, but we also know that many many people throughout history have believed it. We know that there are tons of important jobs in our society where this information is of critical import - if we were wrong about what revolves around what, might cause the whole damn machine to crash down. But for regular guys like you and me? Does it really matter? Even a little?

                      I submit that your answer to that question is going to determine whether or not you should like to pursue your current endeavour

                      Originally posted by frankophonic View Post
                      And I will not lie, there are some things about Neopagans and the general Pagan and Wiccan/Witch community that does rub me the wrong way. I don't want to attack anyone here again like I did before, but I do feel a certain twitch when people tell me that they believe in literal faeries or dragons or thoughtforms. BUT, and this is a big but, I think that most of the general Pagan community have evolved a very different sort of spirtuality than most mainstream religions in the sense that a lot of them see their path as a very subjective thing that is capable of accepting science, using a more psychological approach to belief than a literal one and interacting with their enviornment with respect and awareness. I'm not trying to be sycophantic because this is a Pagan forum, but Neopaganism really does seem to me to be one of the healthiest religious groups floating out in the ether of our world, which is filled to the brim with much darker interpretations of the divine with seriously negative consequences.

                      But I cannot keep but come back to one thing: what makes me happy? What's going to get me through the day and not harm anyone else in the process (a problem I believe comes up in a lot of ready-to-convert your friends religions)? I do a lot of irrational things in the day to get me through it and plenty science-informed people are still willing to admit that a bit of cognitive dissonance and irrationality are hardwired into us and perhaps actually beneficial. I don't know. I just wanted to engage in that unavoidable sin of writing about what you're going through on the internet. Just...can't quit it.
                      There is a lot of rational behavior that has lost it's reason (rendering it somehow irrational )...our bodies are loaded with hundreds of thousands of years of "was once useful, but now? not so much" instinct. Religion and spirituality won't be able to explain it any better than science can, but in the end, I don't think that it really matters much. I would fit that into the category of "small shit", as in, "things not to sweat"

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                        #12
                        Re: Just some experiences...

                        "I submit that your answer to that question is going to determine whether or not you should like to pursue your current endeavour"

                        I've taken some time off from the interwebs, mainly because of work, and this question really did seem like the crux. To be perfectly honest, after a lot of deliberation I think that yes, it does matter. It matters a great deal to me. I do believe that the honest investigation of the world through rational means is important for even "insignificant" people. I guess that puts me at square one but at least it might temper a little of that "New Atheist Movement" Dawkins worshipping in your-faceness that I sometimes regret. That question struck me and I can't bring myself to answer with anything else than yes, it does matter.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Just some experiences...

                          There you go

                          And yes, I despise the anti-religion crowd nearly as much as I despise the WBC and the rest of their ilk. The only difference between the two is that the former is probably correct, which just makes their attitude suck that much more.

                          That being said - the next step IMO would be to decide whether or not you can be satisfied with an answer that may not be correct, but that cannot be disproven. Example?

                          Do human beings have souls? Science can neither prove nor disprove anything regarding a soul. Is the Truth important in this regard? Does it only become important when it becomes testable, or are we pretty safe in believing the possibly untrue for now? Honestly, I can't answer that question. I, personally, don't believe in a soul - and have had mixed results with my outlook in that regard.

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                            #14
                            Re: Just some experiences...

                            Originally posted by Roknrol View Post
                            There you go

                            And yes, I despise the anti-religion crowd nearly as much as I despise the WBC and the rest of their ilk. The only difference between the two is that the former is probably correct, which just makes their attitude suck that much more.

                            That being said - the next step IMO would be to decide whether or not you can be satisfied with an answer that may not be correct, but that cannot be disproven. Example?

                            Do human beings have souls? Science can neither prove nor disprove anything regarding a soul. Is the Truth important in this regard? Does it only become important when it becomes testable, or are we pretty safe in believing the possibly untrue for now? Honestly, I can't answer that question. I, personally, don't believe in a soul - and have had mixed results with my outlook in that regard.
                            Well, that's a tough one. I don't think it is always harmful to believe in something that is untestable but I do prefer to suspend judgment myself on such things, usually. In regards to your particular example: souls, I don't think I could believe in that. That doesn't, however, remove spirituality completely. Traditional Buddhist doctrine has, as one of its most important teachings, the idea of "anatman" (literally: no soul or no self) which denies the existence of an immortal and immutable soul within a human being. And don't get me wrong, I'm not whitewashing Buddhism as so many Westerners do, Buddhism does have a belief in the supernatural: rebirth, miracles of the Buddha, the Boddhisattvas in Mahayana Buddhism, etc. etc.

                            As to the question of importance, well, I just don't know and that doesn't bother me too much (emphasis on the too). I mean, in a very pragmatic kind of realpolitik way then no, it does not matter. If, however, a person has made the search for Truth with a capital T an integral part of his or her life then yes it does. I guess it's like the Existentialists would say: it only matters if you want it to matter. I want it to matter. But I definitely have mixed results. A religious or even quasi-spirirtual-new-age-going-to-the-UU-Church outlook does relieve a lot of mental stress for most people. It gives a framework for interpreting the world, in many of the same ways science does for those who have made science their life's work and not just a keen interest or passtime. I know a lot of people who made science their choice of career in different fields and they use science almost like a lens to create a worldview. Yes, in a bare bones way, science is just using reason to investigate the phenomena of existence in the universe but it comes with its own arcane vocabulary, its own saints and sinners, etc. It can be just as engrossing as faith. Dawkins and Dennet seem to have turned science into something it isn't, which is an all encompasing path that can even apply to subjective areas of life. I find Sam Harris' new book on how science can answer any (yes, ANY) moral question a bit Brave New World for my taste.

                            I sometimes worry that the meat of the matter is that empiricism will never fly for the whole human race as a worldview. The grand dreams of the Enlightenment are not coming true. If anything, the view that every man is a rational ego operating in a godless and reasonable world produces a very, very twisted creation. I mentioned Objectivism earlier, which no offense to any Randers, I find repugnant for many reasons, but there is also the Ubermensch idea that can be taken to very dangerous places or Utopian Marxism. All these hinge on the idea that the rational man (and it is almost always a man since the Enlightenment could give the strictest religion a run for their money in the sexism department) can perfect the world. I'm not sure that the New Atheist movement doesn't fit into this category as well.

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