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    Postmortem Suffering?

    At first I thought maybe this belonged in the Abrahamic section, but apparently several Pagan and Eastern traditions believe in this sort of thing, so I put it here instead.

    Do you believe in Hell or any realm specifically designed to cause agony after death? If so, do you believe that one descends to this place at the will of a deity as punishment for sin or disbelief? Would you say that it's the result of guilt and pain that weren't resolved in life? Do you think it's permanent or that salvation or resolution can be achieved even after death?

    Personally, thinking about this sort of thing too much is probably the only thing that really scares me about death. I like to think that the Universe isn't petty, spiteful, or vindictive to the point that it cares enough that we didn't do this or that to agonize us for eternity. I like to think that we do have free will and will be okay as long as we have clear consciences.

    Anyway, discuss.
    Children love and want to be loved and they very much prefer the joy of accomplishment to the triumph of hateful failure. Do not mistake a child for his symptom.
    -Erik Erikson

    #2
    Re: Postmortem Suffering?

    I honestly believe that the only crucible of pain & misery our souls experience is here on earth. Death is freedom from pain, freedom from suffering.

    I used to believe that everyone got the afterlife they envisioned, but now I'm an eclectic reincarnationist (which means I don't adhere to say, Tibetan Buddhism, which does have several Hells to endure between lives). What we are still carrying around with us when we die affects our next lives, whether that's other people, possessions, lessons unlearned, lessons to teach... ghosts are people who absolutely, positively cannot let go of what they were most focused on in their lifetime & let their earthly bonds over-ride the need to reincarnate. Eventually, our souls get full of experiences and return to the penultimate Source from whence they came, to reform other souls with new things to do.
    The forum member formerly known as perzephone. Or Perze. I've shed a skin.

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      #3
      Re: Postmortem Suffering?

      Our mind and the reality we create for ourselves once we die is what could possibly be a "hell" but it's individual for each person. I do not believe in a single place designated for bad/evil.

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        #4
        Re: Postmortem Suffering?

        I agree with Sacred, actually.

        I don't beleve that the universe sets out to pay us back or avenge our wrongs on others ( although there are a select handful I wish that could be the case with, child rapists and the like).

        There are some people, even seemingly well-meaning ones, who seem to consistently create their own private hell around them here on earth, and I wonder what will happen to them. Things like how they choose to treat others, whether they take responsibility for their actions or blame others, and whether they take a roll of a victim or martyr. People who spread drama and contention wherever they go, no matter how nice they are on the surface.
        Great Grandmother's Kitchen

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          #5
          Re: Postmortem Suffering?

          " Things like how they choose to treat others, whether they take responsibility for their actions or blame others, and whether they take a roll of a victim or martyr. People who spread drama and contention wherever they go, no matter how nice they are on the surface.

          this...

          as my grandfather used to say (part of his many sayings on religion, hell, church, the nature of life, etc), "We make the hell we choose to live in, or not"
          Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
          sigpic

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            #6
            Re: Postmortem Suffering?

            I tend to avoid the idea of eternal judgements. If you accept the premise of an eternal soul, then the eyeblink that it spends on Earth aiding or harassing other eternal souls that are here for comparative eyeblinks seems like a really short period of time to base a sentence that will outlast the stars on. We just can't inflict that much harm. I'm not completely averse to the idea that extreme fuck-ups in this life can complicate issues in the next but I really don't want to meet a power that's handing out literally eternal punishment for actions in this life.
            life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

            Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

            "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

            John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

            "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

            Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


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              #7
              Re: Postmortem Suffering?

              Originally posted by DeseretRose View Post
              There are some people, even seemingly well-meaning ones, who seem to consistently create their own private hell around them here on earth, and I wonder what will happen to them. Things like how they choose to treat others, whether they take responsibility for their actions or blame others, and whether they take a roll of a victim or martyr. People who spread drama and contention wherever they go, no matter how nice they are on the surface.
              Indeed. You've just described one of my roommates in a nutshell, not to mention quite a few others I've met. I honestly don't know how more people haven't offed themselves, considering how astonishingly poorly they seem to think of themselves and their fellow human. Those are the kinds of people I can totally see trapping themselves in their own personal hell when they're dead, if they don't just cease to exist altogether.
              Children love and want to be loved and they very much prefer the joy of accomplishment to the triumph of hateful failure. Do not mistake a child for his symptom.
              -Erik Erikson

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Postmortem Suffering?

                Hell is a place we make for ourselves and allow others to make for us.

                IMHO.
                www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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                  #9
                  Re: Postmortem Suffering?

                  Clive - One of the weirdest things I ever heard about (no offense to anyone, but it was weird to me) was when Mormons were baptizing dead Jews. Obviously there's some belief in post-mortem salvation of sorts there.
                  MaskedOne - I completely see your point as to basing eternity on our short lifespans - but look at how we do that in our lives - An Olympic skater has that one 5 minute performance to win or lose a gold medal, a horse has 2 minutes to win or lose the Kentucky Derby, etc., etc. There seems to be something in our nature that relishes the "moment of glory", so maybe basing eternity on our lives is related to that in some way?
                  sigpic
                  Can you hear me, Major Tom? I think I love you.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Postmortem Suffering?

                    Originally posted by Hawkfeathers View Post
                    Clive - One of the weirdest things I ever heard about (no offense to anyone, but it was weird to me) was when Mormons were baptizing dead Jews. Obviously there's some belief in post-mortem salvation of sorts there.
                    Mormons believe that they have the one true religion. So what, then, happens to everyone who dies, never even hearing about it? In the LDS temple, baptisms (and other temple work) are done by proxy for member's relatives and ancestors who have passed away(this is also why Mormons fund so much genealogical work). It is considered an act of mercy and love, preventing those whose work is done from being trapped in Spirit Prison.

                    The point at which it gets hairy is that most of the kind, elderly men and women who submit the names and dates required don't realize that anyone might possibly be offended by it. Because of this, some get carried away and start handing in names that they aren't actually related to: in the late 1800's, for example, temple work was done for all the signers of the Declaration of Independence. Most famous world leaders have had theirs done as well. Back in the 90's, though, a big brouhaha happened because someone decided it was a good idea to start handing in names for Jews who died in concentration camps during WWII. They didn't seem to realize how offensive that would be.
                    Great Grandmother's Kitchen

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                      #11
                      Re: Postmortem Suffering?

                      Originally posted by perzephone View Post
                      I honestly believe that the only crucible of pain & misery our souls experience is here on earth. Death is freedom from pain, freedom from suffering.

                      I used to believe that everyone got the afterlife they envisioned, but now I'm an eclectic reincarnationist (which means I don't adhere to say, Tibetan Buddhism, which does have several Hells to endure between lives). What we are still carrying around with us when we die affects our next lives, whether that's other people, possessions, lessons unlearned, lessons to teach... ghosts are people who absolutely, positively cannot let go of what they were most focused on in their lifetime & let their earthly bonds over-ride the need to reincarnate. Eventually, our souls get full of experiences and return to the penultimate Source from whence they came, to reform other souls with new things to do.
                      This sums up alot of my beliefs as well. I dont feel the soul feels pain after death at all. Maybe freedom from pain if even for a brief moment before the next life begins?

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                        #12
                        Re: Postmortem Suffering?

                        Yes, DeseretRose, that's what I remember reading.....my ex came from a Mormon family so I'm a little familiar. I can see where the people involved sincerely believed they were doing a good deed, but yet....how rude. Anyway my point in posting about it was that obviously some folks believe in post-mortem salvation. I kind of envy the unquestioning faith of some people. Not to be insulting, but it's kind of like "ignorance is bliss" - if you don't think outside the box, then you aren't in a box, are you?
                        sigpic
                        Can you hear me, Major Tom? I think I love you.

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                          #13
                          Re: Postmortem Suffering?

                          Ah! Makes sense. I was born and raised LDS, and so usually when people bring something like that up, I feel the need to comment

                          I agree with you entirely about boxes. There are people of any religion that sticking within the religion provides a great deal of comfort and joy, but at the same time, it's a painful thing to watch someone cling to something that is causing them pain instead.
                          Great Grandmother's Kitchen

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                            #14
                            Re: Postmortem Suffering?

                            I like to take a hindu belief on this subject. I believe in reincarnation and that what ever we have done in this life determines the kind of life we live next.

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                              #15
                              Re: Postmortem Suffering?

                              I don't believe in Hell or anything of that nature. The idea that the universe or the gods would punish someone for eternity just makes little sense to me.

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