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    #16
    Re: Mixing Catholicism with Witchcraft?

    Originally posted by Hawkfeathers View Post
    Some Protestant denominations insist that Catholics aren't Christian because of the use of intercessors in prayers, etc. IMO that brings Catholicism a bit closer to Paganism. It's the ability to understand different aspects of, and niche purposes for, all those saints, Mary, etc. Yes, Christianity has One God, but there's the whole triune Father/Son/Holy Spirit thing to consider.
    This is what I was thinking in response to the OP, too.

    With catholicism you have the official church stance, then you have a plethora of folk magic and cultural practices, varying by region, that got swept into the mish- mash when various groups converted.
    Great Grandmother's Kitchen

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      #17
      Re: Mixing Catholicism with Witchcraft?

      pulled to avoid personalizing an argument that I don't honestly want to get into
      Last edited by MaskedOne; 14 Sep 2011, 16:38.
      life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

      Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

      "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

      John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

      "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

      Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


      Comment


        #18
        Re: Mixing Catholicism with Witchcraft?

        I guess it all comes down to the seriousness of your faith, your adherence to your church or belief system, and how much of your own personal practices you want to share.

        Spiritualism has a long and proud tradition of mingling a little Voodoo, a little hoodoo, table-rapping, indigenous practices, folk magic and Christianity of many ilks. Some of the most powerful healers and psychics I've encountered were spiritualists. They could pray to the Great Spirit, Papa 'Legba, Jesus and all the Saints in one breath - and didn't concern themselves with hypocrisy.

        That seems to be what we're all dancing around.

        No one wants to call anyone a hypocrite, no matter how much that may be what some of us think when we encounter 'Christo-Wiccans' or 'Christo-Pagans'. It seems to be ok for Pagans to be as eclectic as they choose to be, but when it comes to Catholics, Christians, Muslims, etc. that eclecticism-tolerance goes by the wayside. I'm guilty of it myself - and I accept that and admit it. I do not believe that a Christian or Catholic* can be a witch and still consider themselves a card-carrying Christian or Catholic. There are too many prohibitions against it in the Bible, too many groves cut down, too many temples destroyed, too many people killed in the name of heresy and witchcraft, for it to be ok with me. If a Christian or Catholic wants to practice witchcraft, they can knock themselves out for all I care - but I would not help them, support them or teach them. I would probably snork and roll my eyes whenever they began to speak of their beliefs, or tried to justify mixing spellcraft with Christianity.

        *from what I understand, as long as a Muslim sorcerer does not pray to any other deity in their practices, they can practice magic, alchemy, astrology, etc., and most of our high ceremonial magic(k) has more than its share of Judaism mixed into it, even calling upon JHVH & the archangels.
        The forum member formerly known as perzephone. Or Perze. I've shed a skin.

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          #19
          Re: Mixing Catholicism with Witchcraft?

          Originally posted by perzephone View Post
          *from what I understand, as long as a Muslim sorcerer does not pray to any other deity in their practices, they can practice magic, alchemy, astrology, etc., and most of our high ceremonial magic(k) has more than its share of Judaism mixed into it, even calling upon JHVH & the archangels.
          In alchemy, there is a God-concept (the Living God), but the individual alchemist can use any name for that deity that he/she chooses - it's pretty non-denominational, which is why Alchemy is/was practiced pretty much everywhere, by people of pretty much any religion. In 1317, Pope John XXII issued a papal bull against Alchemy, but in 1330 he gave funds to set up an Alchemy lab (he is believed to have secretly practiced Alchemy - the bull was against Alchemy because of the destabilization that would take place if gold became plentiful, not against Alchemy as a heresy). And in 1294 - 1303, Pope Boniface VIII openly practiced Alchemy in the Vatican. Alchemy is quite different from sorcery or witchcraft.
          Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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            #20
            Re: Mixing Catholicism with Witchcraft?

            Catholicism and mysticism? Dunno. Hope this helps.

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              #21
              Re: Mixing Catholicism with Witchcraft?

              I've heard of 'followers of the way' and 'white wiccans' who say they are christians using good witch craft. I don't really understand it because the bible says to chase all the wizards, necromancers, sorcerors, fortune tellers, witches, sooth sayers, ect. out of the cities and/or kill them. Maybe if you basically pretend the bible isn't the word of God to christians, you might be able to mix christian and pagan concepts. I still don't see it easiliy happening
              Circe

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                #22
                Re: Mixing Catholicism with Witchcraft?

                I have two cents to toss in on that one, Corvus. We tend to think about the old testament as being a uniform work when it's a collection of small documents spanning a rather large chunk of time. There is a lot of archeological evidence that Hebrew beliefs changed dramatically over the course of the OT. For example(going from memory,so I hope I have this right) up until Jeramiah, it seems that Eloheim existed as the "one god" as the head of a small family pantheon, with Asherah as his companion, and Baal and Jehovah as sons. There were prophetesses (like Debora) and Asherah had a sacred poll dedicated to her in the temple.

                Then there was a reformation. Bits of the bible from this period applaud getting rid of the groves, etc, when up until this time they had coexisted peacefully. We don't know exactly why it happened, but there's evidence that this is when the culture started to become much more patriarchal. This is also when prophets start coming down hard on any divinatory power other then their own. Seems to me as though they were weeding out the competition.

                I could see it being possible to embrace what little we know about that original Semitic pantheon, especially if someone is not a literallist.
                Great Grandmother's Kitchen

                Comment


                  #23
                  Re: Mixing Catholicism with Witchcraft?

                  Going only on scripture, there are also (if memory serves) a handful of arguments regarding translation that religioustolerance.org used to have posted that free up a couple options long as you aren't dealing in curses or divination. The problem for trying it with Catholocism is that the Church doesn't operate on a scripture alone policy and canon law is much less vulnerable to translation arguments. There are some wording tricks that could be played but it's simpler and largely more honest to just stop calling oneself Catholic and be content with being a witch that believes in Christ.

                  That said, there are also one or two areas where the US Bishops have classed something as superstition but not acquired a Vatican directive backing them. Specifically Reiki fits into this category.
                  life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                  Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                  "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                  John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                  "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                  Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


                  Comment


                    #24
                    Re: Mixing Catholicism with Witchcraft?

                    Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post
                    Going only on scripture, there are also (if memory serves) a handful of arguments regarding translation that religioustolerance.org used to have posted that free up a couple options long as you aren't dealing in curses or divination.
                    It's probably this page, where they discuss the difference between 'witch' ('a practitioner of witchcraft', the definition as such that religioustolerance.org holds up to some debate) and 'm'khashepah' ('woman who curses other people and their property'). They also play fast and loose with a few of the terms used in Dueteronomy 18:10/11 in different versions of the Bible here.
                    The forum member formerly known as perzephone. Or Perze. I've shed a skin.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Re: Mixing Catholicism with Witchcraft?

                      Those would be the pages I remember. Thanks, it's been years since I looked at those.
                      life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                      Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                      "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                      John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                      "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                      Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


                      Comment


                        #26
                        Re: Mixing Catholicism with Witchcraft?

                        Referring directly to the OP, that describes my mother, actually. She uses some few, basic green, or kitchen, witch, practices (incidentally, she claims that she picked them up through her grandmother) and claims to be Roman Catholic, at the same time.

                        Two things, though. One is that I don't keep it a secret that I think my mom is rather batshit nuts. She mixes reality with fantasy fairly regularly, and that's not in reference to religions, practices or her spiritual beliefs. Second is that I personally feel that Catholicism and witchcraft are mutually exclusive, simply because one forbids the other, in common understanding and definition.

                        So: Can it be done? Sure. Should it be done? That's a different question, with a much different answer.



                        Also, I wanted to say that mixing witchcraft with Catholicism shouldn't be confused with the varieties of voodoo or something akin to Santeria. There is a very distinct difference between using a few Catholic ideas in a very pagan-esque dogma and using a few pagan ideas in a very Catholic dogma.




                        "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

                        "Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth." - Marcus Aurelius

                        "The very ink with which history is written is merely fluid prejudice." - Mark Twain

                        "The only gossip I'm interested in is things from the Weekly World News - 'Woman's bra bursts, 11 injured'. That kind of thing." - Johnny Depp


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                          #27
                          Re: Mixing Catholicism with Witchcraft?

                          I think what confuses people about syncretization is that Vodouisants, Santerians, etc. aren't Catholics or Christians. When a Catholic goes into a Catholic church and sees a statue of Saint Patrick, for instance, to that Catholic, it's Saint Patrick, the guy who drove all the snakes out of Ireland among other things.

                          When a member of one of the African Diaspora goes into a Catholic church, and sees a statue of Saint Patrick - it's not St. Patrick, stomper of snakes. It's Damballah or Obatala. The saint's image is just a costume, it's the lwa or orisha or spirit in disguise. Yes, a Vodouisant will include the Christian God and Jesus and the saints' names in many prayers (usually the 'public' ones), but in the AD, worship of any spirit or God is worship of All, offerings made to one spirit feed them All. In Vodou, it's silly for God to say, "thou shalt worship no other God before Me". It makes very little sense to them. Why would God not want to be honored in rites for the other spirits?

                          In some ways, the Christian God is syncretized with Bon Dieu or Olodumare (and most of the AD religions are 'soft' monotheistic if there can be such a thing) - but Bon Dieu or Olodumare don't mind if a person worships other lwa, orisha, Gods, ancestors, etc. In fact, Bon Dieu/Olodumare & Their equivalents are usually portrayed as being very distant from daily human activities, which is why the lwa/orisha/spirits act as go-betweens. For the most part, it's got to be something big for Bon Dieu to even listen to most of the lwa, let alone a flawed puny human with puny human troubles.
                          The forum member formerly known as perzephone. Or Perze. I've shed a skin.

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Re: Mixing Catholicism with Witchcraft?

                            I hope it's ok to jump in t this thread since it's a little old. Please kindly let me know if it is not, because on another forum that I do not go to any more, I got ridiculed for it, and it was not listed anywhere in the rules. Anyway, I was going to open up a different thread, before I found this post, because I am wondering almost the same, about Christianity and Paganism being combined. (that was a disaster discussion on a the same web site as I mentioned above) I don't know if it can easily be meshed together without someone stepping in and questioning you. I think, that if you have the ability to back up your reasoning, then yes, you could possibly mix both Catholicism and Witchcraft.

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Re: Mixing Catholicism with Witchcraft?

                              Shrug, the question isn't a problem. It pops up a couple times a year. The easiest answer is that it depends on perspective. Incorporating Christianity into Paganism is easy since Paganism is pretty open-ended. By contrast, some rather sizable elements of Christianity come with elements of doctrine that respond various elements of Paganism with "not only no, but hell no." A Christian* attempting to add Pagan elements is going to have a headache on their hands trying to fit elements together with minimal blatant contradiction and may have to drop some pieces of doctrine while they're at it.

                              * Noting that there are a LOT of Christian sects and some will have a much easier time than others.
                              life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                              Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                              "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                              John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                              "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                              Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


                              Comment


                                #30
                                Re: Mixing Catholicism with Witchcraft?

                                Originally posted by WillowMoon View Post
                                I hope it's ok to jump in t this thread since it's a little old. Please kindly let me know if it is not, because on another forum that I do not go to any more, I got ridiculed for it, and it was not listed anywhere in the rules. Anyway, I was going to open up a different thread, before I found this post, because I am wondering almost the same, about Christianity and Paganism being combined. (that was a disaster discussion on a the same web site as I mentioned above) I don't know if it can easily be meshed together without someone stepping in and questioning you. I think, that if you have the ability to back up your reasoning, then yes, you could possibly mix both Catholicism and Witchcraft.
                                It's a good question that I think about, since I DO mix Catholicism and Witchcraft--or rather, just the Craft and/or pagan awareness, as I am not Wiccan. When you say mixing both Catholicism and Witchcraft, are you talking about Wicca/the Craft itself as the religion? Or do you mean the Craft as a system of worship to God(s)? In my mind, the Craft is also the elements that many of our ancestors did in the past to worship the gods. How 'pagan' it is might depend on which side of the fence a person is standing in.

                                In Catholicism there is both Scripture and Tradition. And within the Tradition there is "popular piety", which is basically the celebrations and worship of the people as they have done, often long before Christianity walked onto that country's shores. While the people DO worship the divine in Christianity (the Holy Trinity, Mary, and the saints), Your Mileage May Vary quickly comes into play. The veneration of Mary herself was a groundswell from the people until the Church could no longer ignore it or Her. I do leave offerings of flowers, stones and seasonal items at my shrine to Mary, and make prayer beads as I petition the guide(s)/angels of the receiver to bless it. I have an angel oracle deck that I use to probe my own understanding, but it's still divination. The bible itself has several examples of magic and divination by the prophets. Most Catholics would NOT worship the Triple Goddess, the Green Man, or any deities from other pantheons. That doesn't mean that there haven't been elements of paganism and magic within Christianity itself, that is already practiced by other Christians (speaking in tongues, laying on of hands, etc.).

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