Duality in Deity...What of neutrality?

[babyfyrefly]

I have long considered Deity to be a duality, which drew me to Wicca when I was searching for a religious base, so to speak, during my teen years. Much of my spiritual beliefs center on my understanding of nature and science. For a long time, I perceived duality in everything. However, I have often wondered if I have been overlooking neutrality as a part of Deity. I understand that many pagans believe in a God and a Goddess, which is based on the idea of duality, but what of that which is not male/female?

[volcaniclastic]

Re: Duality in Deity...What of neutrality?

I don't really have anything to contribute to this, other than to say I think the concept of a neutral god is fascinating, and I'd be interested in learning more if anyone has anything on the matter.

[babyfyrefly]

Re: Duality in Deity...What of neutrality?

Okay, here is my line of thought (to clarify my previous post a little)...on the atomic level, the building blocks of the universe comes in three basic parts: protons (positive charge), electrons (negative charge), and neutrons (no charge). In nature, we see can see similar in male/female/asexual. So, if we see the universe as an immense machine or organism made up of all the smaller parts and Deity as the interconnective energy that brings it all together (because energy is the one thing everything in the universe has in common), then would it make sense that we would celebrate three facets of Deity?

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Duality in Deity...What of neutrality?

I think that because male and female are polar opposites, then neutrality is balance - rather like the fulcrum on a child's seesaw. My own path has always been about finding balance - and I suspect that is probably just another definition of neutrality. A sortof middle space between the two opposing forces.

[thalassa]

Re: Duality in Deity...What of neutrality?

I really don't think Divinity is either.

I think gods are (mostly) male and female because we are.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Duality in Deity...What of neutrality?

Duality is an inherent part of the way we percieve our chunk of reality. As soon as we have a thought, we have to create a class of things which do not fit in with that thought (to know a thing you must know both what the thing is, and what it is not).

Deities are perceived as duals because they are perceived by us, and duals is the way we perceive things. Whether that is an inherent part of reality or not is beyond my ability to say. I can only know what it is possible for me to perceive or imagine.

[Raphaeline]

Re: Duality in Deity...What of neutrality?

^ What he said!

I'm a polytheist and I prefer to understand the gods in terms of male or female just because it helps me understand the Divine better. It's a concept I'm familiar with. I don't actually attribute male or female qualities to the whole of the universe or anything, but it guides my understanding of each individual facet of the gods.

[babyfyrefly]

Re: Duality in Deity...What of neutrality?

So, I guess the general consensus is that we give personifications to the gods that our minds can better process. And that, since humans are typically either male or female, that this is how we perceive them. Of course, in ancient mythologies, interexed deities are also prevelant, but this is still an expression of duality...

[Dez]

Re: Duality in Deity...What of neutrality?

I think that because male and female are polar opposites, then neutrality is balance - rather like the fulcrum on a child's seesaw. My own path has always been about finding balance - and I suspect that is probably just another definition of neutrality. A sortof middle space between the two opposing forces.

That just made me think about this in a whole new way, Tylluan. Thank you!

I would agree that there is middle ground, or areas around the edges. OUR modern culture thinks of things in terms of duality, but that hasn't always been the case...how exactly gender was viewed has varied widely.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Duality in Deity...What of neutrality?

Gender in ancient times is an absolutely massive subject - and prone to extremes of viewpoint among scholars. Because we view gender in a particular way, doesn't mean that it's always been the same. Possibly gender was the easiest way to describe polarities because everyone understood it (or thought they did.) Many folkloric practices for instance, require boys to dress as girls (usually to avert the Evil Eye) and vice versa. So neutrality may have been a way of cancelling out the polarities - at least temporarily!

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Duality in Deity...What of neutrality?

Gender in ancient times is an absolutely massive subject - and prone to extremes of viewpoint among scholars. Because we view gender in a particular way, doesn't mean that it's always been the same. Possibly gender was the easiest way to describe polarities because everyone understood it (or thought they did.)

The way duality is expressed in systems which use duality as a structural component (such as the yin/yang polarity, and the spirit/soul duality of alchemy) is based not on an abstract idea of what males and females are (or ought to be, in some one's opinion - psychology) , but on reproductive sexuality.

The systems generally look something like this:

male > female
day > night
active > passive
intellect > intuition
etc. > etc.

To avoid typing the same caveat over and over again, please remember that what I am about to say applies ONLY to reproductive sexuality.

"Male" is "day" because in the day, you have light and can see what is happening. "Female" is night because at night it is dark and you can't see what is happening. In reproductive sex, you can SEE the physical contribution made by the male, but not by the female.

"Male" is "active" because his contribution to reproduction has to leave and go someplace else. "Female" is "passive" because she receives the contribution without having to send something somewhere else.

"Male" is "intellectual" because, if a male wanted tor create another life, he would to think about it - how to do it, plan it out, build a laboratory. "Female" is "intuitive" because a woman knows how to make a new life without ever thinking about it - she never has to think "now I will work on the development of the brain," she just does it.

The problem comes when people don't understand that this is a model for understanding how opposing forces interact, and start thinking that it tells you something about specific humans. Are females "passive" while males are "active" in their responses to events?

Well, some are, and some aren't. But, when it comes to making babies, all females are passive, and all males are active (at least, when we do it like other animals this is true).

In reality, all things are a mix of their opposites - in every male, there is some female energy, and in every female, there is some male energy. This is normal - although the amount varies because each person is an individual.

If one were to create a scale of, say, "reliance on intuition for making decisions," where one's standard preference is given a number between 1 and 5, let's say person A gets a 3 (doesn't matter is this is the male or female). Their opposite (their theoretical match) should score a 2 in order for them to be completely compatible because 3+2=5 - the number expressing totality on this scale.

The problem comes when people simplify the idea and make it into an absolute scale where all males are supposed to score a certain number, and all females are supposed to score the balancing number. This doesn't work... it's stupid because it rejects obvious reality - people are not like that, at all. A philosophy which is not based on reality is bullshit.

[Monk]

Re: Duality in Deity...What of neutrality?

Okay, here is my line of thought (to clarify my previous post a little)...on the atomic level, the building blocks of the universe comes in three basic parts: protons (positive charge), electrons (negative charge), and neutrons (no charge). In nature, we see can see similar in male/female/asexual. So, if we see the universe as an immense machine or organism made up of all the smaller parts and Deity as the interconnective energy that brings it all together (because energy is the one thing everything in the universe has in common), then would it make sense that we would celebrate three facets of Deity?

Hmmmm....This is a very interesting concept as it has never occurred to me to look at it like this. Though at times I have felt the Deity was in fact not quite in God or Goddess (male/female)form. This is possibly like in an electronic circuit where you null the reactive balance in a circuit so that it is at zero or a flat line and not until something else interacts with it (like metal in a coin comparator or the competences in a persons body.) does the circuit respond. Or would you say that this third facet as you have called it would remain neutral or would it change with interaction. I have always thought of a Deity as being able to be whatever it wanted to be Female or male. This would in fact mean that a Deity could chose not to be at any given moment but remain a entity or perhaps a nonentity until it chose otherwise.

[babyfyrefly]

Re: Duality in Deity...What of neutrality?

Hmmmm....This is a very interesting concept as it has never occurred to me to look at it like this. Though at times I have felt the Deity was in fact not quite in God or Goddess (male/female)form. This is possibly like in an electronic circuit where you null the reactive balance in a circuit so that it is at zero or a flat line and not until something else interacts with it (like metal in a coin comparator or the competences in a persons body.) does the circuit respond. Or would you say that this third facet as you have called it would remain neutral or would it change with interaction. I have always thought of a Deity as being able to be whatever it wanted to be Female or male. This would in fact mean that a Deity could chose not to be at any given moment but remain a entity or perhaps a nonentity until it chose otherwise.

My thoughts were that it would remain a neutral entity. However, the Schroedinger's Deity concept is interesting, too.

While I can see how neutrality can be associated with the balance of two opposite forces, that was not really what I was referring to. In balance, the two forces exist equal and opposing, more like negating the effects of each other. What I mean by neutrality is not having the qualities of either, sort of a nonentity, like you said. The glue that holds it all together, perhaps. In atoms, neutrons bind with protons to counteract protons' repulsive magnetism, and their lack of charge maintains the balance between protons and electrons. I suppose, to explain it in a human manner, it is like a baby (before the parents know its gender) bringing its parents together despite their differences.

[Sacred]

Re: Duality in Deity...What of neutrality?

Okay, here is my line of thought (to clarify my previous post a little)...on the atomic level, the building blocks of the universe comes in three basic parts: protons (positive charge), electrons (negative charge), and neutrons (no charge). In nature, we see can see similar in male/female/asexual. So, if we see the universe as an immense machine or organism made up of all the smaller parts and Deity as the interconnective energy that brings it all together (because energy is the one thing everything in the universe has in common), then would it make sense that we would celebrate three facets of Deity?

I understand what you're saying, but I really think it's up to each individual in how they perceive their Divine/God. I prefer to work with abstract energies instead of deities, even though I have 3.

[babyfyrefly]

Re: Duality in Deity...What of neutrality?

I just want to say that I was not trying to offend anyone with my questions or ideas. I was simply wishing to discuss a thought I had and expand upon it. I apologize if anyone thinks I'm trying to disparage their beliefs, that is far from my intent.