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    Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

    Originally posted by LadyGarnetRose View Post
    That is Seattle, not UC-Berkeley.

    Also, pepper spray does not cause miscarriages. Pepper spray is capsaicin, if capsaicin caused miscarriages anybody that ate spicy food while pregnant would miscarry.
    But she was also kicked in the stomach, if you read about it.

    Also of interest from here:

    It should be noted that the Biological and Chemical Weapons Convention signed by almost all countries bans the use of tear gas and pepper spray in war. Since 1990, 61 deaths have been associated with police use of pepper spray (Los Angeles Times June 18, 1995). The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) reported on 27 people who died after exposure to pepper spray (http://www.aclu-sc.org/attach/p/Pepp..._Questions.pdf). An Aberdeen Proving Ground study demonstrated that pepper spray could cause "[m]utagenic effects, carcinogenic effects, sensitization, cardiovascular and pulmonary toxicity, neurotoxicity, as well as possible human fatalities. There is a risk in using this product on a large and varied population" (Salem, US Army, 1993). "Serious adverse health effects, even death, have followed the use of OC sprays. These sprays should be regarded as poisons or weapons" but are now in use in more than 2000 public safety agencies (http://web.archive.org/web/200008170...m/Smith-OK.htm). Conversely, police forces have ended the practice of exposing their members with the chemicals during trainings because of the ongoing health effects.

    It goes on to mention possible risks to pregnant women, but admits that not much is known.

    This article from Fair mentions the extreme concentration of pepper spray for police work, 300 times stronger the a jalapeno pepper, 5 times stronger then that sold to the public, making it's use close-up, and not the way it was intended, potentially qualify as cruel and unusual punishment . Hardly "almost a food product" as described by Fox New's Megan Kelly.

    That said, most of the technical stuff out there seems to point to it being an unknown. As far as I'm concerned the jury is out on this girl, and and waiting to see if her story holds up, or if she's an attention seeker.
    Great Grandmother's Kitchen

    Comment


      Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

      When you break the law, you will end up in trouble. When you disobey a direct order from police to disperse you are breaking the law. Peaceful assembly is not camping out in non-designated areas and making public space unusable by the rest of society.


      Originally posted by Dez View Post
      But she was also kicked in the stomach, if you read about it.
      And the doctors said she was fine. She personally attributes it to pepper spray.

      Also of interest from here:

      It should be noted that the Biological and Chemical Weapons Convention signed by almost all countries bans the use of tear gas and pepper spray in war. Since 1990, 61 deaths have been associated with police use of pepper spray (Los Angeles Times June 18, 1995). The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) reported on 27 people who died after exposure to pepper spray (http://www.aclu-sc.org/attach/p/Pepp..._Questions.pdf). An Aberdeen Proving Ground study demonstrated that pepper spray could cause "[m]utagenic effects, carcinogenic effects, sensitization, cardiovascular and pulmonary toxicity, neurotoxicity, as well as possible human fatalities. There is a risk in using this product on a large and varied population" (Salem, US Army, 1993). "Serious adverse health effects, even death, have followed the use of OC sprays. These sprays should be regarded as poisons or weapons" but are now in use in more than 2000 public safety agencies (http://web.archive.org/web/200008170...m/Smith-OK.htm). Conversely, police forces have ended the practice of exposing their members with the chemicals during trainings because of the ongoing health effects.

      It goes on to mention possible risks to pregnant women, but admits that not much is known.

      This article from Fair mentions the extreme concentration of pepper spray for police work, 300 times stronger the a jalapeno pepper, 5 times stronger then that sold to the public, making it's use close-up, and not the way it was intended, potentially qualify as cruel and unusual punishment . Hardly "almost a food product" as described by Fox New's Megan Kelly.

      That said, most of the technical stuff out there seems to point to it being an unknown. As far as I'm concerned the jury is out on this girl, and and waiting to see if her story holds up, or if she's an attention seeker.
      The person writing the piece really does not know about OC nor how it's rated.

      When it comes to self defense products, Sabre is the #1 personal safety company in the world. Guaranteed defense, maximum strength and free training. Get started here!


      What is Oleoresin Capsicum (OC)?
      Oleoresin Capsicum (OC) is the oil taken from the placenta near the stem of a pepper. Although OC is the active ingredient used in most self-defense sprays, the percentage of OC within the formulation does NOT indicate pepper spray strength. The OC percentage only measures the amount of red pepper contained in the defense spray, not the pungency or effectiveness of the product.

      Civilian and Law Enforcement Pepper sprays range from 0.18% to 1.33% Major Capsaicinoids.

      Bear Sprays range from 1.0% to 2.0% Major Capsaicinoids.


      At the most you're talking 199500 SHU in pepper spray if PURE capsicum is in the spray to be used on human beings, that's not even as hot as a habenaro pepper which clocks in at about 325000 SHU, and if you look at the Ghost pepper, that clocks in a cool million on the SHU.

      Comment


        Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

        Lets not be pedantic, it is what it is, you should have read the report not just the headlines.

        Let us understand each other, I am not for or against the occupy protests, but when somebody does something wrong, it should be reported fairly without bias. When a member of the police breaks the law for me it is worse for they break their own oath to uphold it. As a heathen breaking of oaths is one of the worse things, all you have are your deeds and your word.

        The police in my opinion are being heavy handed, that edict comes from there superiors, it is not right what happened, no reasonable person can condone the tactics used.
        Gunnarr Sandisson
        "A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be." Albert Einstein
        Five Boroughs Hearth

        Comment


          Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

          LGR, once again, I'm not trying to debate this. I refuse to.

          You asked for links, and I provided them. That's all. This isn't a debate, and I refuse to argue the ethical use of pepper spray with you with every ounce of my being...for all the same reasons I would refuse to debate something as barbaric as water-boarding back a couple of years ago.

          No one is forcing you to post on this thread.
          Great Grandmother's Kitchen

          Comment


            Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

            Originally posted by thalassa View Post
            I don't think any of us said it was only about Occupy Oakland, regardless of the title. If anyone implied that somehow, the rest of the thread is indication that it just generally on the Occupy movement.
            It was not implied but rather stated that this thread was about the Occupy Oakland movement. To wit:

            Originally posted by kijani View Post
            Please keep posts on topic. Remember, this thread is about Occupy Oakland.
            I'm not trying to be argumentative nor asinine. I remain fairly neutral on the Occupy movement, having things I both respect and revile about it. I merely think that if the moderators cannot keep up with exactly what is going on, how can the rest of us be expected to do so?
            "The proper office of a friend is to side with you when you are in the wrong. Nearly anybody will side with you when you are in the right."--Mark Twain

            "There are only two types of people in this world who walk around beardless; boys and women. I am neither one." --Ancient Greek saying

            Comment


              Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

              Originally posted by Crimson Horizons View Post
              It was not implied but rather stated that this thread was about the Occupy Oakland movement. To wit:



              I'm not trying to be argumentative nor asinine. I remain fairly neutral on the Occupy movement, having things I both respect and revile about it. I merely think that if the moderators cannot keep up with exactly what is going on, how can the rest of us be expected to do so?
              To be fair, CH, there was a thread that was started that was closed with reference to this thread being the ONE Occupy thread we should use for all topics Occupy....it was stated they didn't want several occupy threads going at once. I think kijani was not aware of that when she posted, and Thal cleared it up.

              It's probably fair to say you aren't the only one that missed it.
              Allow me to lend a machete to your intellectual thicket. ~ Captain Jack Sparrow

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                Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

                Thanks Dez for all the links--I actually hadn't sought out the footage myself because I've heard first-person accounts from people I trust. Good to have official stuff to refer people to.

                Comment


                  Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

                  Originally posted by cesara View Post
                  To be fair, CH, there was a thread that was started that was closed with reference to this thread being the ONE Occupy thread we should use for all topics Occupy....it was stated they didn't want several occupy threads going at once. I think kijani was not aware of that when she posted, and Thal cleared it up.

                  It's probably fair to say you aren't the only one that missed it.
                  Indeed, that does clear things up a bit. My thanks.
                  "The proper office of a friend is to side with you when you are in the wrong. Nearly anybody will side with you when you are in the right."--Mark Twain

                  "There are only two types of people in this world who walk around beardless; boys and women. I am neither one." --Ancient Greek saying

                  Comment


                    Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

                    Originally posted by Crimson Horizons View Post
                    It was not implied but rather stated that this thread was about the Occupy Oakland movement.
                    Oh, crap! I don't even know that I caught that (and if I did, I forgot about it)--sorry about that! I *think* what probably happend is that K thought this was in the debate section when she posted...

                    But yes, the latter decision to keep it all in one thread care after the initial attempt at a second thread bombed, and the third wasn't headed much better (hence being locked and confining everything to this thread).

                    I'm not trying to be argumentative nor asinine. I remain fairly neutral on the Occupy movement, having things I both respect and revile about it.
                    I think most people here would agree with that...

                    I merely think that if the moderators cannot keep up with exactly what is going on, how can the rest of us be expected to do so?
                    AFAIC, if we could keep the bickering to a minimum there wouldn't be a need for a handful of volunteers, all living in different time zones with different access to a computer to try to keep up with it and try to figure out what is going on, and keep the relative peace.
                    Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                      Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

                      Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                      Oh, crap! I don't even know that I caught that (and if I did, I forgot about it)--sorry about that! I *think* what probably happend is that K thought this was in the debate section when she posted...

                      But yes, the latter decision to keep it all in one thread care after the initial attempt at a second thread bombed, and the third wasn't headed much better (hence being locked and confining everything to this thread).



                      I think most people here would agree with that...



                      AFAIC, if we could keep the bickering to a minimum there wouldn't be a need for a handful of volunteers, all living in different time zones with different access to a computer to try to keep up with it and try to figure out what is going on, and keep the relative peace.
                      How about this, a Pro Occupy thread and a Con Occupy thread.

                      Comment


                        Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

                        Originally posted by LadyGarnetRose View Post
                        How about this, a Pro Occupy thread and a Con Occupy thread.
                        What about those of us who are neither camp?
                        Gunnarr Sandisson
                        "A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be." Albert Einstein
                        Five Boroughs Hearth

                        Comment


                          Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

                          Originally posted by Gunnarr View Post
                          What about those of us who are neither camp?
                          I guess people like you and I are very sunny...as in SOL. *hyuck*
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                          "...leave me curled up in my ball,
                          surrounded by plush, downy things,
                          ill prepared, but willing,
                          to descend."

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                            Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

                            Originally posted by Gunnarr View Post
                            What about those of us who are neither camp?
                            We'd be in the thread where grown ups know how to talk.
                            Satan is my spirit animal

                            Comment


                              Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

                              Originally posted by Medusa View Post
                              We'd be in the thread where grown ups know how to talk.
                              Reading through the entire thread,

                              There's not an adult to be seen.

                              [edit] Wanted to add as I was thinking about it. YES I AM INCLUDING MY POSTS AS WELL. [/edit]
                              Last edited by LadyGarnetRose; 04 Dec 2011, 00:18.

                              Comment


                                Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

                                I think your genralisation says more about you than everyone else.
                                Gunnarr Sandisson
                                "A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be." Albert Einstein
                                Five Boroughs Hearth

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