Does the God / Male Deity seem emasculated to you?

[GabrielWithoutWings]

Keep in mind, I'm arguing from a position of ignorance so try not to bite my head off if you think I'm overly-generalizing or just flat out wrong.

This is going to be hard to phrase. It's a topic that easy for me to think about but hard to put into words.

For you folks that have male deities, are your deities emasculated? Do you consider them masculine? If your deity has war and warfare in their profile, do you think it's fair to criticize the Old Testament god when he lays waste to tribes not under his protection?

I was reading The Spiral Dance the other day (yes, I know it was written in the late 70s), and I noticed a recurring theme in her book. All she could really say about the God is that he's masculine without being aggressive (whatever that means) and that he'd never condone rape... and that's pretty much it. I was sort of thrown off-balance. I looked at the page numbers to make sure that I wasn't missing something but they're all there.

Then, I read in her prayer-section and whatnot and I see her calling the God "Sissy" as part of her invocation.

I'm not really sure why this is rubbing me the wrong way. I'm not one of these alpha-jock assholes who thinks his wife should be in the kitchen or whatever.

I think it bugs me that people (women and gay men seem to be the majority) will turn to nature deities, de-fang the Male Aspect, but turn around and are perfectly fine with warrior goddesses like Durga, Kali, Sekhmet, and the Morrigan. If I remember my Scott Cunningham correctly, he's perfectly fine with goddesses that have war in their profile, but under the God entry, he writes that the God's war profile has already done enough damage and that part of his portfolio shouldn't be invoked.

I asked about the Old Testament god because, if you remove the fact that JCI religion is worldwide, the Old Testament reads just like any other mythology. Is it the fact that people grew up with it or the fact that JCI religion "won" or whatever? Do people try and de-fang/emasculate/ignore the Male Aspect to get back at the Abrahamic god?

[Jembru]

Re: Does the God / Male Deity seem emasculated to you?

This is bloomin' spooky. You know I am exploring a new relationship with deity at the moment, and in particular, learning about the new god form(s) that have introduced themselves to me. This is something I have also come to consider.

Basically, when I was a typical British wiccan (they're quite rigid in belief and practise here), our god was traditionally masculine. Sure, he wasn't ashamed to show his tender side, but he was still a manly hunter, provider for us delicate females and fierce protector.

Now though, I am seeing a different side to him. My boyfriend is very sensitive. He's romantic, emotional and not afraid to cry when he is sad. At first, I did think these were feminine qualities, but then I began to wonder how much of our behaviour is forced upon us by society. Something unique to both of us (and no doubt a very large number of folk on this forum), is a complete refusal to adhere to any norms other than what feels normal to US. This made me wonder if we are displaying behaviours that are usually 'trained out' of others.

I began to read up on the Brythons in an attempt to better understand Brigantia and Bregans, who are my new patrons. Unfortunately, most of what I have learnt about God, has been from my own experiences. As my own experience of maleness is softer then I am seeing a far more tender God.

One thing I stumbled upon, which explained why I can find plenty about Brig but little about Breg (I know my deities sound like a comedy duo when I abbreviate their names, but I don't think they mind). It seems that Goddesses tended to be revered over a larger area. Brigantia for example, was worshipped by all the Brigantes, who's tribes covered most of the North of England. Gods on the other hand, tended to be more specific to smaller sub-tribes and settlements. Goddesses were often, as you have touched upon, seen as patrons of war and victory, while gods being specific to places, makes me wonder if they took a more domestic role. Were they protectors of the hearth and home? We know many were vegetation gods but their specific roles are so unclear.

Personally, I am not too bothered by this. Again, I turn to my own relationship to understand what gender and sexuality mean to me, and this in turn helps me to understand deity. My partner and I are very similar people but we have different strengths dictated by our genders and adopt different roles that make the most of these strengths. However, I can be headstrong and assertive, he can be tender and loving and I don't think our gender roles are confused. I am not a big fan of rigid rules about what is normal (if I were, I'd have to stop wearing cat ears in public!)

Having said that, if you are feeling pulled towards a god form that displays what YOU consider masculine qualities, then you should be embracing that. Just don't force things to fit what you have been TOLD. Go with what feels right.

Finally, I also feel Starhawk takes it too far. I'm also offended by calling God a 'sissy', but please remember that she was a feminist and Dianist. This is her imposing her own need to diminish masculinity and does not, I assure you, speak for the thoughts of all wiccans. As I mentioned at the start, my new understanding of God is quite different to how I viewed him as a hard core wiccan!

---------- Post added at 11:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:45 PM ----------

Oh and I want to add, it seems to me as though you have experienced your first 'mystery'. This is when something evokes a strong spiritually connected feeling inside you but then when you come to put it into words, you are unable. I think this book and the feeling of 'this can't be right', has evoked a very real connection between yourself and God! So trust your feelings on this one.

[habbalah]

Re: Does the God / Male Deity seem emasculated to you?

Funnily enough, I was just talking about this very subject earlier with TurningTides.

While I don't see god as a gendered entity (more as a force), my Guardians are all male. I've never gotten a sense of them being "emasculated" or "sissy", nor do they portray any of the "feminine" traits that you seem to be mentioning. While they each have their own personality and it varies how "manly" each of them are, their love for me is a very tough love.

(Now there's something I've wondered about: I'm biologically female, but I've never attracted a female Guardian. I wonder if it's because, while neither being trans or necessarily genderqueer, I'm not all that attached to my gender. But I digress.)

The sort of ideas that Starhawk promoted on this subject makes me feel uncomfortable. I don't think it's right to diminish a man and the maleness of him any more than I think it's right to diminish a woman and the femaleness of her. It's not that I don't think women should be empowered--I do--but I don't think your empowerment should come in the form of grinding someone else into the dirt.

[Gardenia]

Re: Does the God / Male Deity seem emasculated to you?

Usually when I see individuals doing this, they're also the types who do ignore any aggressive qualities in Goddesses as well. You know, the love and light and never anything else folk. No, not all of them do both, but many seem to.

I no longer actively worship any Gods, but when I did I would say all of them were quite masculine. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean aggressive and war-like. Yes, some were... but there is more to being masculine than being aggressive. I mean honestly, is that all we can really say makes one masculine? That's an awfully narrow view, one that doesn't seem any more correct than removing all traces of aggression.

[GabrielWithoutWings]

Re: Does the God / Male Deity seem emasculated to you?

Oh and I want to add, it seems to me as though you have experienced your first 'mystery'. This is when something evokes a strong spiritually connected feeling inside you but then when you come to put it into words, you are unable. I think this book and the feeling of 'this can't be right', has evoked a very real connection between yourself and God! So trust your feelings on this one.

The sort of ideas that Starhawk promoted on this subject makes me feel uncomfortable. I don't think it's right to diminish a man and the maleness of him any more than I think it's right to diminish a woman and the femaleness of her. It's not that I don't think women should be empowered--I do--but I don't think your empowerment should come in the form of grinding someone else into the dirt.

That's what's odd about it, though.

It doesn't bother me a bit to throw 'male' attributes to female deities. Female warrior deities don't bother me a bit. I'm not sure if that makes me a hypocrite when I throw out criticism of those that do the reverse.

Maybe there's a part of me that's old-fashioned and tries to stick Gender Archetypes into traditional roles?

Gads, maybe religiously I'm a masher and a scoundrel and a chauvinist? :uwhaaat:

---------- Post added at 07:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:43 PM ----------

Yes, some were... but there is more to being masculine than being aggressive. I mean honestly, is that all we can really say makes one masculine?

Of course not. You forgot aggressiveness's bastard cousin, laziness. The subtle dance between the two highlights the duality of man. :grin:

[Jembru]

Re: Does the God / Male Deity seem emasculated to you?

Usually when I see individuals doing this, they're also the types who do ignore any aggressive qualities in Goddesses as well. You know, the love and light and never anything else folk. No, not all of them do both, but many seem to.

Over here, this is pretty rare now. When I first came to paganism, the community seemed full of 'harm none' and suchlike. I have been a bit out of touch for a while, but last time I was involved in moots and conferences, this attitude was nowhere to be seen. Maybe we're a little more insular here, but could it indicate a widespread deepening of understanding and a movement to a new stage of development for the pagan movement in general?

God has been suboardinate for long enough in modern paganism. I noticed 3 of us have been thinking about him recently, maybe more. I might start subscribing to a pagan magazine or two as I am interested to see if this becomes a theme. Is it time for the pagan world in general to know god better? Is he making himself known in the hopes of changing attitudes towards him? Maybe not, but I'll keep an eye out just out of curiousity.

[Gardenia]

Re: Does the God / Male Deity seem emasculated to you?

It doesn't bother me a bit to throw 'male' attributes to female deities. Female warrior deities don't bother me a bit. I'm not sure if that makes me a hypocrite when I throw out criticism of those that do the reverse.

Well, it's like society as a whole... Girls who like "boy" things may be given a bit of a hard time, but often it's accepted. However, what about boys who like "girl" things, or may be more feminine? Usually given a heck of a harder time. Society, as a whole, tends to think less of feminine roles and interests.

I think that's something that has to be considered, especially when reading some of these older feminists works, there's a lot of cultural context that surrounds these ideas. Yeah, it may have gone too far in some cases, but I do think it's balancing out a bit more these days.

Over here, this is pretty rare now. When I first came to paganism, the community seemed full of 'harm none' and suchlike.

I have been seeing less of it over the years, but it's still going strong in a lot of (non-traditional) Wiccan communities.

[Jembru]

Re: Does the God / Male Deity seem emasculated to you?

I have been seeing less of it over the years, but it's still going strong in a lot of (non-traditional) Wiccan communities.

I find that very easy to believe. From what I have read, there seems to be a massive variety of traditions that call themselves 'wicca' in the States, without having much in common with the British Traditional paths. There are just fewer pagans in the UK so such groups probably exist and are simply harder to cross paths with.

[Ophidia]

Re: Does the God / Male Deity seem emasculated to you?

I think it really depends on the perspective of the author or speaker or practitioner. I don't think it's the male deities have been collectively emasculated so much as everyone sees a different facet of the deities they work with - and most of the famous and well-known authors and what-not see that particular facet of the God, and publicize it.

Back in the 80s, a lot of Wicca and early public Paganism was feminist. Starhawk is a feminist, and some would consider her a 'femiNazi'. Back then, when Spiral Dance came out, she was deeply involved with feminist activism, doing things like the 'Girls' Nights Out' protests & candlelight vigils to stop violence against women, anti-nuclear protests, and now she's all up in the Occupy movement.

Many authors and public Pagans that were gaining popularity in the 70s & 80s were also feminists (Zsusanna Budapest's the only one I can remember off the top of my head), and many had the experience of the Christian God being a patriarchal, repressive prick. So when those people came out of the broom closet they brought Dianic Wicca and fem-centric Paganism into the world with them. Dianic Wicca, at that time (I don't know about the modern Wiccan scene), did not involve a God at all. From their experiences, the world had enough 'God' and they felt as though the 'God' energy was overbalanced & overbearing, so they shoved that concept out of the picture. And a lot of them were angry at men in general, and blamed all the world's problems on men and male domination. Some had been raped and abused, others were subject to harsh, angry fathers, some couldn't move up the corporate ladders because of men, and the idea of venerating a male God just left a bad taste in their mouths.

Many eclectic Pagans and non-Dianic Wiccans do find patron Gods who are not 'sensitive New Age guys', but everyone's perception and experiences with those patron Gods is going to be different. Although I am moving away from Him, Hades has been my patron God for a long time. My experiences in serving Him have not been with Him as a loving, comforting 'father-figure'. He's stern, foreboding and harsh. Which is how He is supposed to be in my eyes. My experiences with Herne, Cernunnos and Pan are definitely not with Them as tender lovers, but more along the lines of 'nature, red in tooth and claw'.

[MaskedOne]

Re: Does the God / Male Deity seem emasculated to you?

I've come across sects that minimize the role of the God but it's more that they ignore him than try and directly weaken him.

The people that tend to directly de-fang gods that I meet also de-fang goddesses and sometimes reality in general.

[habbalah]

Re: Does the God / Male Deity seem emasculated to you?

That's what's odd about it, though.

It doesn't bother me a bit to throw 'male' attributes to female deities. Female warrior deities don't bother me a bit. I'm not sure if that makes me a hypocrite when I throw out criticism of those that do the reverse.

I don't think it's odd so much as it's more acceptable for a female to have masculine traits, far more so than a male to have feminine traits. Think about it: It's perfectly fine for a woman to have short hair, wear pants, drive a big truck, work in construction, drink beer, or watch football. Those are all stereotypical male activities and interests, but no one would think much of it. (If she had all of these traits together you would probably think she was a lesbian, but regardless.)

If you had a man that wore dresses, liked wine coolers, watched soap operas, worked as a nurse, or had long, pretty hair? You'd probably give him the eyebrow at the least. Or call him "gay". Or a "sissy". A "soft" man is treated far less well than a hard-ass woman.

[Jembru]

Re: Does the God / Male Deity seem emasculated to you?

I think it really depends on the perspective of the author or speaker or practitioner. I don't think it's the male deities have been collectively emasculated so much as everyone sees a different facet of the deities they work with - and most of the famous and well-known authors and what-not see that particular facet of the God, and publicize it.

Back in the 80s, a lot of Wicca and early public Paganism was feminist. Starhawk is a feminist, and some would consider her a 'femiNazi'. Back then, when Spiral Dance came out, she was deeply involved with feminist activism, doing things like the 'Girls' Nights Out' protests & candlelight vigils to stop violence against women, anti-nuclear protests, and now she's all up in the Occupy movement.

Many authors and public Pagans that were gaining popularity in the 70s & 80s were also feminists (Zsusanna Budapest's the only one I can remember off the top of my head), and many had the experience of the Christian God being a patriarchal, repressive prick. So when those people came out of the broom closet they brought Dianic Wicca and fem-centric Paganism into the world with them. Dianic Wicca, at that time (I don't know about the modern Wiccan scene), did not involve a God at all. From their experiences, the world had enough 'God' and they felt as though the 'God' energy was overbalanced & overbearing, so they shoved that concept out of the picture. And a lot of them were angry at men in general, and blamed all the world's problems on men and male domination. Some had been raped and abused, others were subject to harsh, angry fathers, some couldn't move up the corporate ladders because of men, and the idea of venerating a male God just left a bad taste in their mouths.

Many eclectic Pagans and non-Dianic Wiccans do find patron Gods who are not 'sensitive New Age guys', but everyone's perception and experiences with those patron Gods is going to be different. Although I am moving away from Him, Hades has been my patron God for a long time. My experiences in serving Him have not been with Him as a loving, comforting 'father-figure'. He's stern, foreboding and harsh. Which is how He is supposed to be in my eyes. My experiences with Herne, Cernunnos and Pan are definitely not with Them as tender lovers, but more along the lines of 'nature, red in tooth and claw'.

Pretty much what I was trying to say, but said so much better! Yes, my previous experience of the Horned God, was also of a wild, sometimes fierce God and might still be yet, I'm getting to him in good time. It's a slow adventure of discovery I am on right now. I'm enjoying that other members are frequently asking the questions that are right on my tongue. Pagan Forum is offering me the laziest reserch method ever!

Oh to the OP and simply as no one else has mentioned it yet; have you read The Witches' God by Janet and Stewart Farrer? It is quite an interesting study of the male deity without the feminist flavour. I'm not saying he is never described as a gentle lover in there, but I didn't feel he was emasculated. The Farrers tended not to candy coat much in their writing and although they are wiccan, I have met plenty of non-wiccan pagans who found inspiration in their books.

[Vigdisdotter]

Re: Does the God / Male Deity seem emasculated to you?

For you folks that have male deities, are your deities emasculated?

No, why would they be?

Do you consider them masculine?

In so much as it helps my conceptualization of the being in question, yes. But they are gods, not humans. So it's silly to think they will correspond exactly to human notions of gender.

If your deity has war and warfare in their profile, do you think it's fair to criticize the Old Testament god when he lays waste to tribes not under his protection?

Sure, since I question my own gods. It should also be nothing that such criticizing can have nothing to do with the gods themselves but how they are being represented.

I was reading The Spiral Dance the other day (yes, I know it was written in the late 70s)

By an author with very heavy political involvement in politics and feminism and whose own path is notably goddess focused. That said, what on earth is off-balancing about "masculine without being aggressive (whatever that means) and that he'd never condone rape"?

If I remember my Scott Cunningham correctly, he's perfectly fine with goddesses that have war in their profile, but under the God entry, he writes that the God's war profile has already done enough damage and that part of his portfolio shouldn't be invoked.

Which book? I couldn't find any such reference in the ones I have.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Does the God / Male Deity seem emasculated to you?

I suspect that what we make of our deities gender wise has a lot to do with what they make of us.

[Jembru]

Re: Does the God / Male Deity seem emasculated to you?

I suspect that what we make of our deities gender wise has a lot to do with what they make of us.

I was beginning to reach this conclusion too from this thread. It seems likely to me, that the gods know us better than we do, and know which archetypes we need in our lives. Right now, I'd quite like both Goddess and God to show their teeth. My boyfriend was attacked and mugged last night and I'm not feeling particularly fluffy right now.