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    Regional Deities and Issues of Appropriation

    Originally posted by Wednesday View Post
    I agree. And the idea of incorporating local folklore can make some hesitant because they want to respect the local native spirituality, so maybe they don't develop any personal attachments to the land in that way. But, to use Christianity as an example, they would probably come to a new area and tell the locals that their ghosts and ghouls of nature were false and/or demons. The natives would then be encouraged to reject that spiritual landscape. Heathens and most other native religions don't reject it in the same way, but view it from their own worldview. So they would hear tales of the Canadian sasquatch and they would believe it existed, and it would also become part of their natural, spiritual landscape. I'm not saying they would adopt the same gods, or that they should, but that landwights and wild inhabitants of nature transcend religion.
    I'm not trying to yank ya'lls thread, but this is an issue I find quite interesting, and its one that I think more than just Heathens struggle with (perhaps a spin-off of a spin-off, if anyone is interested to discussing it on its own and opening it up to others). I work primarily with water deities/spirits (whether them or their symbolism, I'm pretty agnostically apathetic to, either way it works for us) as I work mostly with the water--the sea, the bay, the canals, the wetlands, etc of where I live, and while I luck out that most water entities travel better, or are sort of universal ideas with different "clothes" (and I don't really give a shit what other people think about me), I'm incredibly uncomfortable with the idea of incorporating (or appropriating, depending on how one looks at it) the deities that actually "belong" to my locale (not that there is alot of info on Powhatan mythology or religion anyhow).
    Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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    #2
    Re: Relationships between heathens and gods

    I totally understand being uncomfortable with it, and I think it's a fine line. To me, its more about contextual relationships. Someone elsewhere said it better than I, "If a heathen and first nations stood side by side in front of a rock that had a wight dwelling in it, they would each have their own way of relating to that wight." I don't suggest incorporating regional folklore into your practice*, or holding NA rites to local land spirits, what I suggest is being aware of the regional folklore and giving it its due from the context of your spirituality. It seems unnecessary to avoid local folklore and superstitions because it's not on European soil. I don't think First Nations tribes would put blinders on to spirits they felt while visiting Switzerland. Do you think acknowledging it contextually is appropriation? (Honest question, this is still something I'm working out. )

    *I need to rephrase this. I do suggest acknowledging it in your environment and as influences in your environment. I don't suggest appropriating it, or trying to approach it as a NA.
    Last edited by Wednesday; 22 Feb 2012, 11:09.

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      #3
      Re: Relationships between heathens and gods

      Originally posted by thalassa View Post
      I'm not trying to yank ya'lls thread, but this is an issue I find quite interesting, and its one that I think more than just Heathens struggle with (perhaps a spin-off of a spin-off, if anyone is interested to discussing it on its own and opening it up to others). I work primarily with water deities/spirits (whether them or their symbolism, I'm pretty agnostically apathetic to, either way it works for us) as I work mostly with the water--the sea, the bay, the canals, the wetlands, etc of where I live, and while I luck out that most water entities travel better, or are sort of universal ideas with different "clothes" (and I don't really give a shit what other people think about me), I'm incredibly uncomfortable with the idea of incorporating (or appropriating, depending on how one looks at it) the deities that actually "belong" to my locale (not that there is alot of info on Powhatan mythology or religion anyhow).
      Thal, let's start a different thread on this, in one of the main areas! That conversation has a lot of promise.

      Edit: cut the second half of my post, as it pertained to the other thread. Moving it there.
      Last edited by Dez; 22 Feb 2012, 13:06.
      Great Grandmother's Kitchen

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        #4
        Re: Relationships between heathens and gods

        Originally posted by Wednesday View Post
        I don't suggest incorporating regional folklore into your practice*, or holding NA rites to local land spirits, what I suggest is being aware of the regional folklore and giving it its due from the context of your spirituality. It seems unnecessary to avoid local folklore and superstitions because it's not on European soil. I don't think First Nations tribes would put blinders on to spirits they felt while visiting Switzerland.

        *I need to rephrase this. I do suggest acknowledging it in your environment and as influences in your environment. I don't suggest appropriating it, or trying to approach it as a NA.
        I wholeheartedly agree with not appropriating Native American beliefs and traditions--particularly wholesale (though I think the "line" differs for everyone--for example, I have somewhat of a *thing* for Sedna, who is an Inuit deity of the sea, though I don't approach her in any way that mirrors Native American traditions, and--while I'm sure someone would be offended, she and I haven't had a problem). Additionally, there are problems with things like dreamcatchers, which have largely entered mainstream society as a whole, which I don't necessarily see as something to be avoided (though I often try to use the overall idea while changing the execution, if that makes sense) but YMMV.

        Do you think acknowledging it contextually is appropriation? (Honest question, this is still something I'm working out. )
        ...good question. I'm still working that one out too, but I think I lean towards *it depends*. I think that the *energy of a place* (whether it be an entity or not) is something that is probably cross-cultural, but recognized differently. I think that in such a case, if one recognizes an entity in a location that is also recognized by the native culture of the area, its probably okay to also recognize it...but to do so in a way that is as close to one's own tradition as possible without breaking any taboos or anything that would offend the native culture, on the basis of that being its tradition as well (if that makes sense?). For example, alcohol might not be an appropriate offering for an entity recognized by a Native American group. I think also, that one (based on their own cultural and traditional bias) might not recognize a particular entity or energy, in which case, I think that it would be inappropriate to do so...and conversely, one might recognize something that is not traditional to the native culture, in which case, perhaps it is appropriate to do so in whatever way is part of one's personal tradition.

        ...I hope that makes sense...it was a bit wordy, lol.

        I'm still not totally sure of this...still working it out

        In a practical sense though, I have made offerings of thanks to Neptune (we have a giant statue of him at the beach, I consider it my own personal shrine) in the aftermath of a hurricane, for being safe and sound (we had a 10 min power outage, and that was it). I've also made offerings directly to the sea (in the name of a number of ocean deities), and left trinkets with a few of our many many many mermaids. But...I've also been on a canoeing trip where one of the portages travels through a burial ground and followed the custom of leaving tobacco and asking for safe passage (and I was still nominally Christian at least one of the times), and I share a shot (drink one, pour one) of whiskey when I go to Civil War battlefields (we do Civil War reenactments).
        Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
        sigpic

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          #5
          Re: Regional Deities and Issues of Appropriation

          Cultural appropriation (or misappropriation) has always been one of the biggest problems people see with 'core shamanism' or modern shamanistic practices. It's always kind of been a sore spot with me as well - I'm American, I was born in North America - why can't I pay respect to the spirits who live here? Why must I be expected to only acknowledge the spirits of my 'ancestors'? And which 'ancestors'? My mother's people came from both France and Canada. Should I focus on Canadien spirits? If I do... well, I'm an American white girl - do the Ontario tribes really want me mucking about in their culture and traditions when I haven't made any effort to even follow my family tree? I've already experimented with my father's side - Welsh and Prussian German - and found nothing there. And the Christian God of my immediate family? Uh, no.

          I live in the convergence of the Great Basin and Mojave deserts, in a unique corner of Nevada that has actual wetlands, high desert and low desert. We were once part of an ancient inland sea, and spiky mountains surround us on all sides. Yaqui, Paiute, Navajo and Apache tribes wandered through here continuously, taking advantage of the natural springs and oases. Coyotes, foxes, lizards, antelope, elk, big horn sheep, horses - they all live here, as do Coyote, Antelope, Horse, Fox... The desert itself has a spirit, and She is old and weathered and wise. She endures.

          I believe that, as a Pagan, it's not really a good idea to just drag foreign entities around with me wherever I go. I have a lot of foreign deities that I pay my respects to, and many of Them are uncomfortable in a desert. Herne isn't too prominent here - even though there was and still is hunting. Dionysus? We have few vineyards. The orisha & lwa fare somewhat better because they are spirits of people more than place - and the lwa who are spirits of place pretty much stay home. Persephone and Hades are kind of the same way as the orisha & lwa, deities of a Universal force rather than just local to Eleusis.

          I've lived here on and off for the past 20-something years, and no matter how many times I move, the desert keeps dragging me back. I've made an effort to get to know the land, its elemental spirits, its local entities, but I let the entities in question make themselves known to me instead of forcing introductions. Once they've indicated that they are definitely here, and interested, that's when I begin paying my respects and making offerings - in my own way. There are probably thousands of spirits out there that have absolutely no interest in me or my personal practices, or would be insulted if I started calling them up randomly. I connect very well with the ancient ocean that was once here, much like the mammoths of La Brea - and I don't think those ancient spirits 'belong' culturally to any one people in particular. I'm not trying to make money or fame off of the native spirits. I'm not trying to tell anyone that this way is the 'right' way to practice Paganism, but I'm tired of people trying to make me feel guilty for communicating with the entities who have lived where I live.
          The forum member formerly known as perzephone. Or Perze. I've shed a skin.

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            #6
            Re: Regional Deities and Issues of Appropriation

            I don't add local Powers (or most others to be honest) to my standard practice. I may take steps to bring one into a given problem or at least appease one about my meddling if I think failure to do so would offend a given entity that I prefer not to argue with but it's almost always a diplomatic gesture and normally a one time event.

            Similar logic applies to a number of blessings I put on people. For instance, I almost always drop by a church if I'm blessing or protecting Christians because I'd want Christ either backing or at least ignoring me instead of taking personal offense when I start using Craftwork on his faithful. He isn't central to my practice but I try to be polite when I start meddling in his affairs so he does get a say* when I'm dealing with his people.

            *This is provided they aren't a threat to something under my care at which point, I'm going to address the threat first and worry about their relationship with Christ later.
            life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

            Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

            "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

            John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

            "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

            Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


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              #7
              Re: Regional Deities and Issues of Appropriation

              I also meant to add that I see a difference in cultural deity and natural deity. The fertility god here is kokopelli, but I approach Freyr. There's a difference, I think, in coexisting with land spirits, and building reciprocal relationships with gods culturally. I'm not of NA culture so I do not approach that aspect of it at all.

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                #8
                Re: Regional Deities and Issues of Appropriation

                This is a really interesting topic. Thus far ive delt with this by simply not telling anybody what i'm doing so nobody feels offended.

                ...thats probably not how it works.
                Please disregard typos in above post. I browse the web on a Nook and i suck at typing on touch screens.

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                  #9
                  Re: Regional Deities and Issues of Appropriation

                  There's another aspect to this that confuses me. When is it syncretization and when is it (mis)appropriation? Why is syncretization generally viewed as acceptable while modern Pagans/neo-Pagans doing basically the same thing viewed as (mis)appropriation?
                  The forum member formerly known as perzephone. Or Perze. I've shed a skin.

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                    #10
                    Re: Regional Deities and Issues of Appropriation

                    Fascinating topic.

                    I live in Northern Michigan, where you'd expect the Genius loci to be Native American flavored, but when they present themselves, they feel to me to be much more Northern European.

                    I always just figure that they present in a form that matches one's "nature," whatever that really means. Since culturally I'm much closer to Europe than I am to Native American, and also by interest I am drawn more to Europe, this makes sense to me.

                    But, weirdly, one of the more powerful things which hovers around my sacred spot presents as some kind of Meso-American thing - a cluster of mythologies that leave me flat out disinterested (no disrespect - you probably know what I mean. They just don't touch me).

                    I don't know - call them the genius loci, deva, spirits, deities, or psychic projections, but I think that we mostly cloth them with our own minds, at least as much as their own nature will allow them to fit in the cloths we make for them.

                    ---------- Post added at 09:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:25 AM ----------

                    Originally posted by perzephone View Post
                    There's another aspect to this that confuses me. When is it syncretization and when is it (mis)appropriation? Why is syncretization generally viewed as acceptable while modern Pagans/neo-Pagans doing basically the same thing viewed as (mis)appropriation?
                    Maybe it's misappropriation when one takes a living belief system, and commandeers it for one's own purposes, but syncretization when one incorporates useful things, without making the claim that he/she has "the legit original."
                    Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                      #11
                      Re: Regional Deities and Issues of Appropriation

                      This is an interesting issue. I sort of feel a bit like that at home in a way...tied to spirits of the land. Not as much here though. Berlin is very much a modern city, and it used to be swamp land and was relatively recently settled (the earliest traces of settlements they can find date to the late 12th Century AD and there's no evidence or records or anything of people being here earlier), and therefore was always predominantly Christian (said settlements appeared to be a church), at least until the 20th Century, when those influences started to recede. I don't relate to any of that, especially not the church of the middle ages. As for other religions....if you go a bit east or north, it was slavic. Other areas of the north were more nordic. West you get traces of celtic cultures. Maybe it's why it's so hard to pick a direction here.

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                        #12
                        Re: Regional Deities and Issues of Appropriation

                        I'm sure Germany is a pretty good snapshot of all of Europe, what with the Germanic tribes, Celts, and Wends that have passed through there. I've heard that scientists say Czechs are genetically in the "middle" of the European map, in that they're equally related to everyone. Germany probably isn't far off. There's nothing wrong with a little eclecticism though, that's how I started out. Gods know eclecticism probably existed between all three of those groups at some point.
                        If you want to be thought intelligent, just agree with everyone.

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                          #13
                          Re: Regional Deities and Issues of Appropriation

                          I only just started working with local deities in the last year and I am finding it extremely rewarding. It's different for me though, because I am almost certainly descended from the people who once worshiped these deities. I also know that invading peoples absorbed these deities into their own pantheons, so they're not incompatable with other traditions or belief systems. I understand how it might be uncomfortable to adopt deities one sees as belonging to another culture though. Having said that, if these are local deities of the land, sea, rivers etc, then surely they were there before these native people identified them and gave them names? In which case, can a local deity really belong to a culture, or do they simply belong to the land itself? I realise I'm answering as an outsider here, and might not understand how fragile the situation is.
                          夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

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                            #14
                            Re: Regional Deities and Issues of Appropriation

                            I do what feels right to me at the time, and I take full responsibility for it. Sometimes one deity or numen, sometimes another will call. And I will answer. And if I have to call, they are free to send me to voicemail where I'm told, 'Sorry, that's not appropriate, try something else.'

                            Basically for me it's all about what's appropriate and the context of an individual situation. I do not appreciate people claiming that a particular deity is theirs and I must not go near it. That's like claiming I'm trying to steal someone's grandmother away when all I want to do is to ask her something. If she doesn't want to speak to me, that's fine. And it goes without saying that I would behave and act respectfully towards her.

                            If something works, then I assume it's acceptable to all parties. Deities, spirits, entities etc., are quite capable of giving me a slap in the face if I step out of line. They don't really need people to stand up for them - at least iMHO.
                            www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                            Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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                              #15
                              Re: Regional Deities and Issues of Appropriation

                              Personally, me and my sister witch use whichever deity feels right for that Magick that we are preparing for. And we do prepare, we tend to decide on deity while we are writing the spell and when it comes to doing it; if it still feels right then great.

                              I am drawn to particular deity, but I'm certainly not ignorant enough, in my opinion, to believe that I am to only use one and that they are only there for me.

                              The Lord and Lady will come to me, whichever way they're meant to at the time.

                              Blessings

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