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    #31
    Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

    What are your feelings about morning-after pills, IUD's, etc. My understanding is they prevent a fertilized egg from attaching/growing in the uterus.
    We are what we are. Nothing more, nothing less. There is good and evil among every kind of people. It's the evil among us who rule now. -Anne Bishop, Daughter of the Blood

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      #32
      Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

      Originally posted by Siloh View Post
      I am earnestly and not at all mockingly wondering if you mistook the core of my question to be the latter segment, growing voices and all that, and not the former question of why the mother is a less suitable spokesperson for an organism that is totally dependent on her, as its only environment, for the process of becoming an independent life form. I'm not sure if you were addressing the questions simultaneously or if you were largely responding to my latter question. If so, that was not the heart of my curiosity, and was really more rhetorical than perhaps was indicated, since this is a Q&A.
      Never ask a rhetorical question to a hostile audience because it becomes fair to respond to it as if it were intended as a meaningful question.

      The reason is simple. The mother can not make a personal decision involving life or death for the infant because only the individual his/her self can make that kind of decision. There are probably execptions which could be worked out, but tis is the general principle without the quibbling.

      This is my answer to your question.

      ---------- Post added at 07:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:12 PM ----------

      Originally posted by Shahaku View Post
      But I think that my decision is a faith based one and that has no place in political policy.
      Sure. Vote based on whatever you choose.

      A woman's body is her own and what she does with it is her choice. I respect all religious views and since I do, I realize that there are cultures that don't believe the soul enters a child until they are born, or baptized, or reach a certain age, or go through initiation. And in their belief system, they aren't killing a human being when they have an abortion and who am I to tell them what to believe?
      I had a second cousin born with spina-bifida (hope I spelled that right) and her intestines out side of her stomach. She lived through a week of pain and surgery before passing away and the doctors knew by the fourths month of so that this was going to happen. Her chances of surviving, knowing what they knew, were less that 5%. But she had a twin sister who was fine and they didn't want to threaten the healthy twins life, so they decided to proceed with the pregnancy. I think in these instances, I would rather spare them the pain.
      What about children who become pregnant? The youngest mother on earth is something like 8 or 9 years old. They bore the child and they were fine, but is it okay to say that they must carry that child just because the fetus isn't a threat to their life?
      Finally, for a direct question, I've seen in several places that a stillborn child isn't treated like a child at all. They aren't allowed to be buried in Catholic cemeteries, and often are treated as waste in the USA. This really is a major issue I have with Christians who are pro-life. It's life, unless it's naturally born dead, then it was never really a life after all. It's kind of hypocritical to me. So how do you view stillborn children?
      Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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        #33
        Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

        Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post

        How would somebody know that that is not done?

        People who are pro life are part of one group. They often overlap with and are part of other groups. It's like asking why an auto mechanic never fixes dinner... the question is funny because the two parts are disconnected.

        Edit - I just read Caelia's response to MaskedOne - I don't know what the limits are, I guess it's individual. I do know what my concerns are, and any child related issue has my definite attention. I also care about other stuff, but I guess that becasue I'm not as exposed to it, I don't feel me pushing myself into it.
        Thank you for reading my clarification. This is actually helping me better understand your point of view at the very least I also understand this is one issue that can get pretty heated quickly and like you said while we're technically hostile I think everyone's doing a decent job of avoiding aggression. Unfortunately I have more questions...

        1. I know in many states they have a program implemented where children born to parents who don't want them can drop them off at a "safe haven" (usually a hospital) and don't have to face any legal penalty. The name of the program is escaping me (and where they are implemented states have a time limit from how many days after the birth), but I was wondering if you see this as a viable program to at least curb abortions? Would you want this program taken further? How so and in what way?

        2. Do you feel schools can do a better job with curbing abortion rates, be it college, high school, or otherwise? If so, how?

        3. While many people feel that abortion is an issue for women only, clearly you disagree. If it doesn't feel like I'm putting you on the spot, would you explain why you feel abortion affects men as well, or is it just about the fetus? I understand if you don't feel comfortable with this question; it's one that kinda can go south fast from my observations.

        4. Do you feel that more emphasis on the male's responsibility for contraception would lessen the amount of abortions?
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          #34
          Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

          Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
          Yes, we exist.

          Go ahead and ask.
          I'm pro life too.
          My life.
          Satan is my spirit animal

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            #35
            Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

            Originally posted by Shahaku View Post
            What are your feelings about morning-after pills, IUD's, etc. My understanding is they prevent a fertilized egg from attaching/growing in the uterus.
            Yes. The egg (if fertilized) is prevented from attaching to the uterine wall (I think...).

            So, technically, applying my "human at fertilization" principle, I should be against those foms of birth control because they essentially kill the fetus (if any).

            Honestly, though - I'm not going to piss about this type of birth control. There actually is a point at which theory becomes too thin to stand on. I think this is that place.

            ---------- Post added at 05:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:29 AM ----------

            Originally posted by Caelia View Post
            Thank you for reading my clarification. This is actually helping me better understand your point of view at the very least I also understand this is one issue that can get pretty heated quickly and like you said while we're technically hostile I think everyone's doing a decent job of avoiding aggression.
            Yes, I think so too. When I used the term "hostile audience" I was using it in the technical way to mean "an audience that disagrees," rather than "an adienence that is fighting."

            1. I know in many states they have a program implemented where children born to parents who don't want them can drop them off at a "safe haven" (usually a hospital) and don't have to face any legal penalty. The name of the program is escaping me (and where they are implemented states have a time limit from how many days after the birth), but I was wondering if you see this as a viable program to at least curb abortions? Would you want this program taken further? How so and in what way?
            Well, I probobly want what I think most reasonable people would want -
            1. Do every possible thing to help people so that they DO NOT feel like thay have to give up a kid in order to survive.
            2. If a person does not want a child, make it easy for them to give it up.
            3. Do not skimp on whatever it takes to provide a safe, secure and caring environment for these abandoned children.


            2. Do you feel schools can do a better job with curbing abortion rates, be it college, high school, or otherwise? If so, how?
            It depends on where you live. Here, we have sex ed in school. It's good sex ed, too, not that "abstinence only" crap (Corbin doesn't have much patience for abstinence). I still have eight young mothers this trimester. Sex education, contraception education, contraceptive availability - I don't know... provide these and hope?

            ---------- Post added at 06:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:56 AM ----------

            3. While many people feel that abortion is an issue for women only, clearly you disagree. If it doesn't feel like I'm putting you on the spot, would you explain why you feel abortion affects men as well, or is it just about the fetus? I understand if you don't feel comfortable with this question; it's one that kinda can go south fast from my observations.
            My disagreement with abortion has to do with the loss of the life of the fetus. To say that men have no business getting involved in this issue is like saying that Americans have no business caring about the victims of a Japanese Tsunami. I think that a person - male or female - can care about any victim.


            4. Do you feel that more emphasis on the male's responsibility for contraception would lessen the amount of abortions?
            LMAO - are you for real?

            Unless a woman is in a committed relationship with a trustworthy man, she's have to be an utter boob to rely on him for birth control, UNLESS it is something clearly visible, like a rubber.

            Face it - in a casual encounter, the man has no incenive to tell the truth. There are even men who will lie to women whom they know, even whom they know well.

            I wouldn't lie, and most folks I know wouldn't lie, but I also know a lot of men who just could care less. Since a lady can't know who can't be trusted until she knows them pretty well, she ougfht to be careful.
            Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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              #36
              Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

              Thank you for answering more of my questions. As a clarification what I was asking in 4 stems from a social view that women should be solely responsible for contraception. In fact, women are the most likely to buy male condoms. I was wondering if you felt that if more emphasis were placed on men than what is already been placed, which socially is very little.
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              "...leave me curled up in my ball,
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              to descend."

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                #37
                Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

                Originally posted by Caelia View Post
                As a clarification what I was asking in 4 stems from a social view that women should be solely responsible for contraception. In fact, women are the most likely to buy male condoms. I was wondering if you felt that if more emphasis were placed on men than what is already been placed, which socially is very little.
                Yeah - I guess I answered that as a more technical question. Because of the context, it is unwise for a woman to rely on the man for BC.

                As a question about responsibility, though...

                1. You say that very little responsibility is placed on men. That may be true in your experience, but many men, such as myself, are very responsible, and take that seriously. I was taught how and why to be responsible. Many men are. Avoid presupposing that a local condition is a universal condition. The men who are responsible and know that they are responsible are apt to feel as if they have been insulted.

                2. To respond to your actual question... I think everybody, man or women, should take full responsibility for his/her actions. Teaching one's children to do so should be one of the major activities of a parent.
                Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                  #38
                  Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

                  Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                  Yeah - I guess I answered that as a more technical question. Because of the context, it is unwise for a woman to rely on the man for BC.

                  As a question about responsibility, though...

                  1. You say that very little responsibility is placed on men. That may be true in your experience, but many men, such as myself, are very responsible, and take that seriously. I was taught how and why to be responsible. Many men are. Avoid presupposing that a local condition is a universal condition. The men who are responsible and know that they are responsible are apt to feel as if they have been insulted.
                  This was something I read, so I wasn't just making assumptions about this. While I've looked again and it was based on surveys with condom companies I found it was just women were more likely to use contraception rather than purchase condoms.

                  “Women are more likely to make contraceptive decisions and to initiate condom use in their relationships,” said Diane Quest, a spokesperson for Planned Parenthood. “Our research found that many women feel embarrassed purchasing condoms.”
                  Source: http://jscms.jrn.columbia.edu/cns/20...ercondoms.html

                  I understand that you feel defensive right now, but please don't make assumptions either. I'm not trying to "trap" you. I'm not trying to "trip you up". These are just questions I usually don't get to ask someone with a pro-life view.

                  2. To respond to your actual question... I think everybody, man or women, should take full responsibility for his/her actions. Teaching one's children to do so should be one of the major activities of a parent.
                  Thank you for elaborating on your point.
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                    #39
                    Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

                    I'm sorry, Caelia. I wasn't getting defensive. The problem was that the statement of the question contained a false assumption - that "men" are not responsible. I had to correct that false assumption before I could reasonably answer the question.

                    If I were to make a statement like "Women can't think logically" I wouldn't be surprised - because I would deserve it - to be corrected. Sweeping generalizations are deeply irritating... Correct them when you find them!
                    Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                      #40
                      Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

                      I understand; the tone just read a bit defensive and I wanted to convey that it was far from how I conveyed it (not sure if that makes sense).

                      Along that line, though, there seems to be a few studies (looking it up on google scholar) that indicate a combination of upward mobility in combination to oral contraceptives have led to less abortions in women. With more efforts made towards creating a male contraceptive pill do you feel this will further curb abortion rates eventually, or do you feel it needs to be congruent with stable income for abortions to be curbed? Basically, do you feel in relation to the studies both stable income and contraceptives (not even oral solely is fine if it helps explain your view better) or can it be mutually exclusive to curb abortions?

                      Studies in question: http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/.../rest.91.1.137

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                        #41
                        Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

                        Uhmmm... I dunno.

                        Economic security for people is worth working toward, whether it reduces abortions or not. So is personal responsibility for one's actions. People sharing responsibility for the condition of the world is also good.

                        If all three are put together, I would imagine that the number of abortions would go down, but even if it doesn't, it's a good goal for other reasons.

                        I don't know if I've answered yet...
                        Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                          #42
                          Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

                          I understand. Sometimes I ask weird questions, so take your time
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                          "...leave me curled up in my ball,
                          surrounded by plush, downy things,
                          ill prepared, but willing,
                          to descend."

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                            #43
                            Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

                            Originally posted by Caelia View Post
                            I understand. Sometimes I ask weird questions, so take your time
                            LOL - time won't do it. You're asking for info that would require a specialist...
                            Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                              #44
                              Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

                              On contraception we must understand that our world can only sustain so many people. At some time we as humans must understand that we can't have children just because we want them. One must consider as a parent if you can support many children,or at some point realize having many children reduces the ability to support and care properly for all of them. It seems we are entering a period of reduced resources due to over population. Oil is rising in cost because there is increased demand by populations coming into the industrialized group. At some point,we as a species must consider ether keeping the population at some set base,or find a way to go to another fresh world.
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                                #45
                                Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

                                Originally posted by anunitu View Post
                                On contraception we must understand that our world can only sustain so many people. At some time we as humans must understand that we can't have children just because we want them. One must consider as a parent if you can support many children,or at some point realize having many children reduces the ability to support and care properly for all of them. It seems we are entering a period of reduced resources due to over population. Oil is rising in cost because there is increased demand by populations coming into the industrialized group. At some point,we as a species must consider ether keeping the population at some set base,or find a way to go to another fresh world.
                                I'm hoping for a fresh world.

                                I suppose that, eventually, if we can't get off world, we really will have to breed ourselves into some kind of passive sheepy thing, and then go extinct.

                                I'd really rather go somewhere else...
                                Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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