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At what point does a person stop being Wiccan and become something else?

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    At what point does a person stop being Wiccan and become something else?

    For the last couple of weeks, I've been attempting an experiment of sorts. I've been attempting to stick myself in a box and figure out if an established faith system is close to what I'm leaning towards.

    The reason I'm asking about Wicca in particular is that I lean towards a (mainly) duotheist type of theology (it's actually much more complicated in my head). Obviously, a person that is simply duotheist (that is, believes in a God and Goddess) isn't necessarily Wiccan... but why? Is it the Rede that primarily makes one Wiccan? Or a belief in thrice-fold karma? Reincarnation?

    What if a person believes in a God that isn't the Horned Lord of the Forest and believes in a Goddess that isn't simply Mother Nature?

    I'm not interested in self-initiated vs coven-initiated. I'm talking about strictly beliefs and world-view.
    There once was a man who said though,
    It seems that I know that I know,
    What I'd like to see,
    Is the I that knows me,
    When I know that I know that I know.

    #2
    Re: At what point does a person stop being Wiccan and become something else?

    I realized that I no longer qualified as (at least, rigorous Alexandrian) Wiccan when...

    I stopped using tools and casting protective circles to cast spells because I realized there was nothing 'out there' that I needed to protect myself against, and I could cast a spell with my hands and heart and brain better than by waving wands and knives around.

    I stopped 'religiously' celebrating the Wheel of the Year holidays because I realized they didn't really apply to me.

    I stopped worrying about the myriad ways I was 'harming others', because, hey, I gotta live somehow.

    I stopped trying to pair up Gods and Goddesses in order to maintain some sort of genderized status quo.

    I stopped worrying about the formalized degrees I was never given, and the initiations I never received because I knew my own abilities and trusted my own wisdom more than any of my former classmates or coven-mates.

    Basically, I stopped thinking of my religion in terms of Wicca and more in terms of generic eclectic Paganism. The teachings of Gardner & Alex Sanders & the Farrars, while valid in their own ways, just weren't valid for me anymore. And now, when invited to participate in an open Wiccan ritual, I can go through the motions and not embarrass myself or others, but I do feel kind of goofy, like attending Catholic mass with someone & having to sit-stand-kneel-sing-along-and-try-not-to-giggle-when-the-priest-says-'wooOOooomb'.
    The forum member formerly known as perzephone. Or Perze. I've shed a skin.

    Comment


      #3
      Re: At what point does a person stop being Wiccan and become something else?

      When one catches their married HPS in bed with a new initiate?

      Seriously though, this is one of those areas where you'll never get agreement from all parties. I dropped the title after I became solitary, but not because I think the term wicca only applies to witches who meet in covens. It is just that it helps me to mentally detatch from the old group. I have known of people using the title who have nothing in common with 'mainstream' wiccan ideas. For example, Francessca De Grandis calls herself wiccan but her beliefs and practises include... Deities not being fascets or parts of a greater god or goddess, but individual and real entities. Magic does not require a circle and is cast by becoming aware of the physical world being nothing but energy, then experiencing yourself as part of this continuous flow, then directing this energy mentally towards a goal. Her form of 'wicca' is solitary, although you learn it through apprenticeship (for a fee of course), with an 'elder'.

      Then I've met people who besides being solitary, basically practise most of the things I associate with Wicca, but sternly reject the term. There is also sometimes a similar rebellion against 'wicca' as there is against ones birth religion. That's hardly surprising considering a new-comer to paganism is bombarded by various paths using the 'wicca' lable. If they came to paganism to escape the 'mainstream', then wicca is hardly going to sit well with them.

      I guess one stops being wiccan, simply when they don't feel wiccan.
      夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

      Comment


        #4
        Re: At what point does a person stop being Wiccan and become something else?

        Wicca is nearly as bad as Pagan for being an umbrella term. The end result of this is that you're Wiccan as long as you choose to be so and you cease to be Wiccan the moment you choose not to be. There might be a very short list of universal characteristics but I'm not betting anything I personally want to keep on the odds. Now there are a number of Wiccans specific to various sects who will disagree with me but I can't be bothered to personally rename the grand host of people claiming to be Wiccan who would be considered something else by some of their stricter peers.
        life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

        Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

        "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

        John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

        "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

        Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


        Comment


          #5
          Re: At what point does a person stop being Wiccan and become something else?

          I call myself a solitary pagan witch. Solitary because I work alone, pagan because of what it rules out, rather than what it actually means in its own right, and witch because I don't follow 'An it harm none...' and some other Wiccan maxims. Over the years this developed into my own path... and I call it a path because on my journey I have to meet and adapt to many new things. In many respects there is a great deal of Druidism in my path (which I call Seeking the Green) although I wouldn't call myself a Druid either.
          So... basically I go along with Jembru's sentiments, that you stop being a Wiccan when you stop feeling like a Wiccan.

          But remember, you can stop feeling anything at all when you put yourself in a box....
          www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


          Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

          Comment


            #6
            Re: At what point does a person stop being Wiccan and become something else?

            IMO: a duotheistic belief in deity or a soft-polytheistic duotheism, some sort of religiously significant WOTY mythological construct, a rationalization of the Rede and incorporation of that rationalization into one's religious ethics and some semblance of worship in the ritual format created by Gardner, et al...but that one should definitely realize that their claim won't necessarily be recognized by someone in a lineaged, initiation-based tradition.
            Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
            sigpic

            Comment


              #7
              Re: At what point does a person stop being Wiccan and become something else?

              I went from being a Babylonian Recon to being an eclectic mix of Babylonian religious beliefs and epicurean philosophy, to atheist to agnostic polytheist (same strand as before), and worshipping for a while like I did before. Now, I'm barely practising my religion. What does that make me? It doesn't make me anything, religion-wise, I am what it is I believe. If you don't believe in what you did before, then its no longer your religion. If you do. but don't feel a connection, or dont practice it as much, you still are what you beleive. That's how I look at it. Or maybe i missed your point?
              I was Hadad2008 when I joined Feb 2008.
              I became Abdishtar this spring.
              Then, after the Great Crash, I was reborn as Spartacandream!

              Comment


                #8
                Re: At what point does a person stop being Wiccan and become something else?

                Originally posted by spartacandream View Post
                I went from being a Babylonian Recon to being an eclectic mix of Babylonian religious beliefs and epicurean philosophy, to atheist to agnostic polytheist (same strand as before), and worshipping for a while like I did before. Now, I'm barely practising my religion. What does that make me? It doesn't make me anything, religion-wise, I am what it is I believe. If you don't believe in what you did before, then its no longer your religion. If you do. but don't feel a connection, or dont practice it as much, you still are what you beleive. That's how I look at it. Or maybe i missed your point?
                I'm not talking about personal beliefs. I'm talking about tacking on a label (or, putting yourself in a box) and associating yourself with a particular tradition.
                There once was a man who said though,
                It seems that I know that I know,
                What I'd like to see,
                Is the I that knows me,
                When I know that I know that I know.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: At what point does a person stop being Wiccan and become something else?

                  Originally posted by GabrielWithoutWings View Post
                  I'm not talking about personal beliefs. I'm talking about tacking on a label (or, putting yourself in a box) and associating yourself with a particular tradition.
                  I agree with what Perzephone, Tylluan, And Jembru are saying. The question I guess I'm asking of you is why do you feel the need to be "tacking on a label" and/or "putting yourself in a box". The reason I use the term Pagan is that it fits my general religious beliefs, but it's probability not a perfect fit. I dropped the eclectic for my "Label" because I felt it wasn't needed. As I feel that ALL religions have borrowed somethings from some were else so whats the point.
                  Like the labels Pagan, Christian, Jew, or Muslim(and many others) there are many variations of these religious beliefs. Some people fell the need to further define these beliefs some do not. Like others have stated "What do you feel"? It really is a decision that only you can make and/or decide to change at another time as it will not be written in stone.
                  Gargoyles watch over me...I can hear them snicker in the dark.


                  Pull the operating handle (which protrudes from the right side of the receiver) smartly to the rear and release it.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: At what point does a person stop being Wiccan and become something else?

                    The only time anyone is putting me in a box will be when I am dead. Otherwise, I don't intend going anywhere near one... but that's just my humble opinion, of course
                    www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                    Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: At what point does a person stop being Wiccan and become something else?

                      Whatever you do comes back to you threefold. This is just to be a balance of a positive and negative energies in the world.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: At what point does a person stop being Wiccan and become something else?

                        Originally posted by financing View Post
                        Whatever you do comes back to you threefold. This is just to be a balance of a positive and negative energies in the world.
                        Err off topic.

                        Also rapes Newton's Third Law, possibly Conservation of Energy, and most traditional definitions of balance...
                        life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                        Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                        "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                        John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                        "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                        Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: At what point does a person stop being Wiccan and become something else?

                          Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post
                          Err off topic.

                          Also rapes Newton's Third Law, possibly Conservation of Energy, and most traditional definitions of balance...
                          Back on topic: this is why I disagree with those who use not believing in the three fold law as a reason they're not wiccan. I have only met 'wiccans' online, or who are very new to the path, who believe in this law. Even Alexandians that I know, would be offended to be accused of believing in this out-dated rule. Could just be my part of the world, but at least in my experience, the three fold law does not a wiccan make.
                          夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: At what point does a person stop being Wiccan and become something else?

                            I generally have a mildly more polite view of it, I'm just not fond of saying that it's a balanced equation 3 only equals 1 is rarely balanced.
                            life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                            Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                            "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                            John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                            "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                            Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: At what point does a person stop being Wiccan and become something else?

                              Originally posted by Monk View Post
                              I agree with what Perzephone, Tylluan, And Jembru are saying. The question I guess I'm asking of you is why do you feel the need to be "tacking on a label" and/or "putting yourself in a box". The reason I use the term Pagan is that it fits my general religious beliefs, but it's probability not a perfect fit. I dropped the eclectic for my "Label" because I felt it wasn't needed. As I feel that ALL religions have borrowed somethings from some were else so whats the point.
                              Like the labels Pagan, Christian, Jew, or Muslim(and many others) there are many variations of these religious beliefs. Some people fell the need to further define these beliefs some do not. Like others have stated "What do you feel"? It really is a decision that only you can make and/or decide to change at another time as it will not be written in stone.
                              Because I have need to categorize myself. That's the way I'm wired. Part of that comes from heavy studying of apostolic Christianity.

                              As for variations, yes, that's correct. However, there is still a dividing line that separates all the religions that you stated.

                              What I'm asking for is the dividing line between general duotheistic Paganism and Wicca. If your answer is, "Well that depends on the person..." then give your personal definition. That's all anyone can do, since neither is creed-based the way Abrahamic faiths are.

                              ---------- Post added at 07:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:50 PM ----------

                              Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                              IMO: a duotheistic belief in deity or a soft-polytheistic duotheism, some sort of religiously significant WOTY mythological construct, a rationalization of the Rede and incorporation of that rationalization into one's religious ethics and some semblance of worship in the ritual format created by Gardner, et al...but that one should definitely realize that their claim won't necessarily be recognized by someone in a lineaged, initiation-based tradition.
                              ^^This is more what I'm looking for.
                              There once was a man who said though,
                              It seems that I know that I know,
                              What I'd like to see,
                              Is the I that knows me,
                              When I know that I know that I know.

                              Comment

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