Changing prayer patterns with my five year old

[Dez]

So, many of you know that we didn't change what we were doing with our kids(especially in terms of ritual like prayer) until we moved away from my in-laws. It would have gotten far too messy too fast.

My three year old is fine. My daughter, though, is experiencing a lot of anxiety about the fact that I, in particular, no longer always pray to a male figure. Given how very gender segregated mormon culture is, I'm not too surprised, but I'm really not sure where to go from here.

We're working through a lot of things that my MIL told her: That you can get married elsewhere, but you have to be married in the Mormon temple to a boy to be with your family forever. That it's better to be a mommy then a doctor or a musician(and the implication that you can't be both). I have no idea what she told her about God, but there's a LOT of anxiety attached. When we were still living with them, MIL got angry with her for wanting to pray to Heavenly Mother, and later for trying to put her hands on MIL's head and bless her when she was feeling sick(only boys can do that--if it had been one of her male cousins it would have been a "oh, isn't that touching...someday he'll have the priesthood and do it for real" moment).

Right now, she listens to what we do, and says a prayer to Odin, following the old format that she was taught. We keep trying to stress that she can pray however she wants, but it's obviously stressful for her, and I'm not sure how to diffuse the situation and give her confidence and assurance. I'd like to introduce her to ideas about the goddess, but it seems as though the idea of Heavenly Mother being silent and unacceptable to pray to sunk in far more deeply then I ever would have imagined.

I've also tried things like saying more generic night prayers to the sun and moon, or Father Sky and Mother Earth, and she's rejected that outright. No longer wants to pray to the Mormon "heavenly father" either, since we don't anymore, even though we've said it's ok if she does.

[thalassa]

Re: Changing prayer patterns with my five year old

I think this is one of those "Rome wasn't built in a day" things...I mean, she's gone thru 5 years of MIL's indoctrination which was backed up by nearly everything she encountered--family, friends and friends family, school families, church, church school, church families, etc. Its going to take time.

And it might mean taking a bit more of a stand religiously and critically of LDS in general and maybe even grandma specifically. I'm not sure how much you may have done so already (I know that you were trying to *keep the peace* for a long time, and I know you probably aren't wanting to alienate her from family needlessly, and that you are trying to let her find her own path), so forgive me if this is stuff you've done already, but it might mean having a talk about why you left being a Mormon and why you think its wrong and why you think Grandma is wrong.

Today Phee asked me what something totally stereotyped an inappropriate meant because she had overheard it...and so we had a whole conversation about how sometimes people believe things that are wrong. Which became a whole conversation about when it is appropriate to stand up to someone that is wrong, and when to walk away.

I bring this up because (particularly among Pagans) we are so quick to teach our children to stand up to bullying someone on the basis of race or ability/disability or sexuality or gender...but we leave our kids with this really wishy-washy non-guidance on religious beliefs...and it leaves a lot of room for messages we don't support to wiggle in and make their mark (and in Squish's case, she's had more that just a little dose of that). I think there has to be some sort of middle ground--something like "Different people believe different things because they see the world in different ways. Its okay that grandma believes X, but we've learned that the world isn't the tiny window that she is looking out of, and A, B and C are why we no longer believe X." or something like that...

I think its awesome to let our children find their own way to experience the Divine...but I don't think the answer is to let them bushwhack their own trail to do it (I'm not saying this is what you are doing either Dez, just that it is a common phenomenon).

Really though, I think its just a matter to just give her time. Reassure her, repeatedly. Explain to her what you believe and why and why you think what she has been exposed to is wrong, repeatedly. Maybe even take her to some different churches and types of worship, so she can see that other people experience religion in different ways, and they are still okay.

[Ophidia]

Re: Changing prayer patterns with my five year old

I bring this up because (particularly among Pagans) we are so quick to teach our children to stand up to bullying someone on the basis of race or ability/disability or sexuality or gender...but we leave our kids with this really wishy-washy non-guidance on religious beliefs...and it leaves a lot of room for messages we don't support to wiggle in and make their mark (and in Squish's case, she's had more that just a little dose of that). I think there has to be some sort of middle ground--something like "Different people believe different things because they see the world in different ways. Its okay that grandma believes X, but we've learned that the world isn't the tiny window that she is looking out of, and A, B and C are why we no longer believe X." or something like that...

I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that no one is 'born' Pagan. So many firmly Pagan parents I know get hung up on the notion that only Christians decide what religion their children will practice, and that children are actually supposed to be blank slates until a certain age when they can choose for themselves. As a result, I know a lot of Pagan parents with atheist/agnostic kids. Which is ok, too, but for some reason I find it hilarious.

Really though, I think its just a matter to just give her time. Reassure her, repeatedly. Explain to her what you believe and why and why you think what she has been exposed to is wrong, repeatedly. Maybe even take her to some different churches and types of worship, so she can see that other people experience religion in different ways, and they are still okay.

This, so much of this. It's how my parents did it, and as a result I got to meet a lot of interesting people and see things from very different perspectives. My parents were basically agnostics, and both had come from repressive and strict Christian families (my mother from southern Baptist/Pentecostal & my dad from old-school German Lutheran). Both of them hated the idea of 'church'. We didn't go to church, we had no family prayers, the Bible was kept only because it had pictures & a filled-out family tree. 'God' and 'Jesus' weren't household words (other than my dad's creative swearing). But if I spent the night with someone on a Saturday & they went to church the next day, I was encouraged to go along. I saw Quakers, Mormons, Methodists, Unitarians, Catholics, Baptists, I was even invited to a Jewish service and a Buddhist temple (living in So Cal & Washington in the 70s/80s didn't hurt for diversity). Along w/churches & temples, I had a library's worth of mythology & the occult stuff at home.

At around 9 or 10 I stopped spending Saturday nights with friends that I knew were going to church the next day because, well, it was boring. And by my early teens I was a practicing Pagan. Not saying that's what will happen to your kid, but at least it will give her some exposure to other points of view. Finding maybe a CUUPS (Covenant of Unitarian Universalist Pagans) service in your area might also help her see that other people pray like you do and you're not just out to sabotage grandma

[Dez]

Re: Changing prayer patterns with my five year old

Hmm...thanks you two, both for the reassurance and the ideas. That just gave me a lot to think about.

I agree, Thal, with the idea that there needs to be some direction...more then anything I've been doing my best to not hide what I, personally, do. It was easier when I had my shrine up because of that...perhaps once we've moved into the new apartment, that will open some new doors. I hadn't thought of that.

I wasn't familiar with CUUPS, either, Perz, thanks for that! I was attending a tiny little UU congregation in Idaho Falls before we moved, and they were far too small to have anything like that. CA Bay Area shouldn't exactly be hurting...I'm going to search around and see what pops up near our new apartment.

[Medusa]

Re: Changing prayer patterns with my five year old

Ok I am NOT a parent. Whew. So take what I say with a grain of non breeder salt.

She's five. Kids aren't religious creatures. They are too busy living life and being spiritual creatures on a totally not even trying but totally getting it vibe. It's not that important to her as it is to you, probably. I do agree with the ladies about guidance. We can't be leaving such big things up to kids. It used to stress me out on what to wear to school or that I needed to pee while at school..let alone deciding just how I'm going to pray. Lol.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Changing prayer patterns with my five year old

I'm one of the people who never bothered to give much direction in terms of religion to my kids - I'm going to give you a slightly different take... then use your own judgement (of course).

I was - gently - indoctrinated into a particular religion as a kid. No pushing, no brow-beating, no emotional twisting, but everybody around me just assumed that they had it right, and I would/should follow suite.

However, my "inner lights" told me that they weren't entirely right... at least, while they may have been "right" for themselves, their right wasn't right in terms of my own personal experience.

So I spent an awful long time looking around and thinking and experimenting, and ultimately arrived at something which I know is right for me (although you understand that it's flexible - I still look, and think, and experiment, so what I think today isn't necessarily what I'll think tomorrow... or even ten minutes from now...).

My biggest problem in all that questing, though, was overcoming that early "gentle" indocrination. I was filled with all kinds of hooey about what is right and what is wrong, what a diety is and what it isn't, what a religion should be and what it shouldn't, etc., etc., ad nauseum. In short, I was stuck in somebody else's (well meaning people - my parents) personally distorted vison of reality - that is to say, I was filled with other people's prejudices - which became my own. It's taken massive work to peel away as much of that as I've been able to peel away - and I'm nowhere near the center of the onion yet...

So I just let my kids find it on their own.

When they asked questions, I answered as honestly as I could, or when they made statements, I encouraged them to explain and give their reasons (which we discussed in a non-critical way, except for breif digressions into things like the nature of evidence, and logic). Both seem to be very content with their personal relation to their current religious beliefs (whatever those beliefs are - I couldn't even say).

I've never been particularly interested in what my kids become, or establishing some sort of core beliefs in them. I'm much more interested in helping them develop the mental tools and personal confidence to explore, experiment, and trust the results of their own train of thought - in other words, I want them to experience reality, not adopt my version of reality.

And it seems to be working, so far...

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Changing prayer patterns with my five year old

I think the problem is that you're trying too hard. People don't need to pray regularly, honest. Maybe she will share your faith, maybe she will abandon it altogether. Maybe her choices will be permanent, maybe temporary. THe thing is though, she is only five years old, and maybe she needs a break from prayer. I think the Norse deities would have understood this (my opinion obviously, there may be heathens here who totally disagree ) Anyway, I would suggest the following:

1. Getting to know nature. Because honestly, there is nothing like nature in all her wildness and beauty to make us realise that there is something bigger out there. But don't suggest this. Just encourage her to engage with that sense of awe - because I firmly believe this is one of the first steps towards spirituality anyway.

2. Encourage a sense of fairness about gender. Again, nothing to do with gods and goddesses, just in everyday life. Because once you can see gender-based unfairness (or indeed fairness) in everyday life, you can appreciate that it's nonsense in spirituality too.

3. I agree strongly with Thal's advice about perhaps explaining exactly why you no longer follow the same path as before. But don't dump all this information on her at once. Begin by countering what your MIL did/said/insisted by saying, 'Of course that's just her view. There are lots of different views.'

4. Be patient. Not with your daughter but with yourself. You've been through a lot of changes, and bringing up children on any spiritual path is always going to be a bit difficult. None of mine are outright witches, nor even pagans. But they think for themselves, and some definitely have a few 'witchy' leanings. And that's okay by me.

And good luck!

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Changing prayer patterns with my five year old

Here's an interesting article on teaching kids spirituality - I disagree with about 50-60% of it, but it's a good article with some good suggestions in it, and worth reading.

[Ophidia]

Re: Changing prayer patterns with my five year old

She's five. Kids aren't religious creatures. They are too busy living life and being spiritual creatures on a totally not even trying but totally getting it vibe. It's not that important to her as it is to you, probably. I do agree with the ladies about guidance. We can't be leaving such big things up to kids. It used to stress me out on what to wear to school or that I needed to pee while at school..let alone deciding just how I'm going to pray. Lol.

This isn't always true, though. One of my nieces, at 5, couldn't have cared less about the nature of God or Goddess or the hereafter. The other, at 5, did care a lot. The difference was that one niece wasn't around 'spiritual' or religious people. The other one was. The religious niece worried about God watching her all the time, judging her, deeming her worthy/unworthy. She was paranoid about God because her religious aunt filled her head with, "Don't do that - God is watching you" and "Jesus loves it when you behave". She spent a lot of time worrying about God & Jesus - and my sister couldn't really cut her off from that side of the family completely, only limit her exposure and try to be a mediating factor when the subject of God or Jesus came up.

Many kids aren't as simple-minded as we'd like to imagine them. They've got really, really big heads... something's gotta be going on in there.

[Dez]

Re: Changing prayer patterns with my five year old

Thanks!

I feel a need to clarify, slightly. For the most part,we have been just answering questions as they come, explaining what we're doing and why. I agree with keeping it low-key, and not trying to push her any direction.

I think the reason why prayer is becoming an issue is because it's been part of her bedtime routine every night ever since she was a baby. Story, song, prayer, go to sleep. Every night.

She first started wanting to pray differently after she noticed that we'd changed what we were doing. Then, after we moved, we started to have these points where we get to prayer and she starts crying or whining, saying she doesn't know who to pray to anymore and that nothing feels right, but she doesn't want to not pray. That's why I've been trying to come up with more options...give her other ideas, and try and figure out how much of this is her really upset (it seems pretty real to me, especially since it doesn't just come up at bedtime, but I could be wrong) and how much is her trying to get attention or delay bedtime.

Does that clarify a bit? I sit somewhere between Thal and Corbin on the issue of how much structure. At the end of the day, I want my kids to have a sense of security and stability ( and she seems to have anything but that right now) but I don't care what religion they have(or lack thereof) when they grow up...I want them to be good people, who treat those around them well.

[thalassa]

Re: Changing prayer patterns with my five year old

Many kids aren't as simple-minded as we'd like to imagine them. They've got really, really big heads... something's gotta be going on in there.

Ye gods...like my daughter and her complete pantheon! I had nothing to do with that...except let her have the room to be creative.

I sit somewhere between Thal and Corbin on the issue of how much structure. At the end of the day, I want my kids to have a sense of security and stability ( and she seems to have anything but that right now) but I don't care what religion they have(or lack thereof) when they grow up...I want them to be good people, who treat those around them well.

I completely agree with this (emphasis mine!), although I do care about what religions they don't have, because I think they make being a good person a lot harder...

With that being said, a lot of that is probably the changes. Maybe picking some stories that are close to what she is used to might help...or that don't change the language too much for her One of my kids favorite books is the story of Ecclesiastes 3, told in multi-cultural and historical images...another one is called the Blessing Seed, and its a retelling and rewrite of the creation story...another one is Old Turtle.

Maybe letting her make prayer more an inside dialogue? Or let her leave out naming who she is praying to...something like, "close you eyes and rest your mind and find the small, still center in your heart and let your thoughts float away to god" and then ask her what she would like to be thankful for, who she would like to as to keep safe, etc, and let her say those parts out loud, then finish it with something like "now close your eyes again (if she's like my kids, they are open again by now) and feel the love and blessing of your family and friends, and of the Earth, the moon and the stars, of the very Universe, and God" You could add specific deities in there--we add Chickadee's nature spirits, and Mother O'shen and Neptune...or not, if she's not comfortable with it.

Then again it might just be where her insecurity is leaching out because of the situation--change is hard on kids, and I'm discovering that 5 is a weird age with regards to insecurities...Phee is super sensitive about some things...and I'm waiting to find out how much of this is a stage (this too shall pass) and how much is going to be her personality (in which case, my Pisces on the cusp of Ares child is going to have some rocky times in life).

I think if you guys look for UU classes, she'd still be in Spirit Play--if the RE program where you go uses that, which both my kids go to on Sundays, while we are in service. At our congregation, its a really nice, and open ended program that mostly emphasizes what the UU calls the "rainbow principles"--the children's versions of the 7 principles thru stories and myths. (Old Turtle is actually a UU fave--there is even a youtube version of it--you could listen on there (the images aren't the ones from the book)).

[Medusa]

Re: Changing prayer patterns with my five year old

Many kids aren't as simple-minded as we'd like to imagine them. They've got really, really big heads... something's gotta be going on in there.

Or...maybe she wants to be Mormon.

[Dez]

Re: Changing prayer patterns with my five year old

Or...maybe she wants to be Mormon.

She might...

MIL and FIL certainly play up how great it is, and used some pretty manipulative tactics when I wouldn't let them take her to the baptism of the granddaughter of some friends of theirs. Every trip to her cousin's home seemed to include a little lesson about church for the kids, too.

Then again, she might remember the day I pulled a U-turn in the parking lot because she started sobbing about going inside. Being shunned at school because we didn't go to church. Or the agony of visiting her cousin's ward and having an hour meeting where she was expected to sit still and be silent.

Or she just might miss the closeness of the family members we just left, and be tired of being stuck in a hotel room.

I wish I knew what was going through her little head

[Medusa]

Re: Changing prayer patterns with my five year old

At five I was eating Happy Cat cat food with my cats.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Changing prayer patterns with my five year old

She first started wanting to pray differently after she noticed that we'd changed what we were doing. Then, after we moved, we started to have these points where we get to prayer and she starts crying or whining, saying she doesn't know who to pray to anymore and that nothing feels right, but she doesn't want to not pray. That's why I've been trying to come up with more options...give her other ideas, and try and figure out how much of this is her really upset (it seems pretty real to me, especially since it doesn't just come up at bedtime, but I could be wrong) and how much is her trying to get attention or delay bedtime.

Does that clarify a bit? I sit somewhere between Thal and Corbin on the issue of how much structure. At the end of the day, I want my kids to have a sense of security and stability ( and she seems to have anything but that right now) but I don't care what religion they have(or lack thereof) when they grow up...I want them to be good people, who treat those around them well.

I'm wondering if this is more of a security issue than a religion issue. Religions that have very strong structures - absolute right and wrong - are overly confining for many people because they have to clip their wings in order to fit. However, those religions do provide a very solid structure for those who need that (my oldest daughter seems to need that kind of structure. She's a Baptist).

With your life being so unsettled currently, and all the big changes, a lot of the structure she relied on for security has been pulled out from under her feet. It may be that this is her way of expressing that.