Somatoparaphrenia(I wanna cut off my limb disorder!)

[cesara]

Re: Somatoparaphrenia(I wanna cut off my limb disorder!)

I think there is a difference between healthy, safe 'body mod' and creating a scenario where you induce physical illness and/or physical disability. Being too skinny makes you sick. Being too fat makes you sick. Doing either to yourself on purpose denotes an unhealthy mental state, imho. (note the 'on purpose' part) Also, purposely modifying your body in a way that creates a physical disability is also, imho, a sign of an unhealthy mental state.

For me, that's where the line is drawn.

[Denarius]

Re: Somatoparaphrenia(I wanna cut off my limb disorder!)

Okay, but should people be allowed to make that choice for themselves? I can drink myself into a stupor and smoke a pack of cigarettes every day.

Should I do this? No. Should I be allowed to do this? Yes.

It's unhealthy, but so is any number of things I can do. It's unhealthy to sleep too long, or not long enough...

What you are doing is applying your thoughts, experiences, emotions, and morality onto other people. Do you want to rob them of their autonomy, their self agency, for the "greater good," or because you know better?

Whether or not it's in ther best interest, or for their own good, we should be allowed to make our own choices about what we do. If you think otherwise, it is because you think they are beneath you. A subhuman abberation.

They shouldn't be able to make that choice, they should be sent away and reprogrammed. Then, when they've been changed, they'll see how much better off they are when they're just like me.

[Medusa]

Re: Somatoparaphrenia(I wanna cut off my limb disorder!)

A body mod is not a body mod. If you have a mental illness(out of control), then you are not able to make a responsible choice.
When I was cutting myself, it wasn't to be sexy. I was fucked up and whacked out of my gourd.

I have tattoos. I was in a sane state of mind at the time.
(doesn't mean I had taste though!)

[cesara]

Re: Somatoparaphrenia(I wanna cut off my limb disorder!)

Okay, but should people be allowed to make that choice for themselves? I can drink myself into a stupor and smoke a pack of cigarettes every day.

Should I do this? No. Should I be allowed to do this? Yes.

It's unhealthy, but so is any number of things I can do. It's unhealthy to sleep too long, or not long enough...

You are missing the point. Doing any of those things on purpose in order to induce ill-health/disfigurement denotes mental illness. The majority of people who drink alcohol, smoke, sleep too long, eat too much don't do it 'on purpose' to create illness...they do it because they most likely have an addiction. (imho, another mental illness, but not the same beast we are talking about, here) Ask them if they want to stop and a large majority would most likely say, 'Yes.' That's very different than smoking large amounts in an attempt to induce lung cancer in yourself -- on purpose.

What you are doing is applying your thoughts, experiences, emotions, and morality onto other people. Do you want to rob them of their autonomy, their self agency, for the "greater good," or because you know better?

I don't think you would say the same thing about a 12 year old who smokes and drinks, daily. The 13 year old is not equipped to make responsible, healthy choices for themselves. In the same way, people who purposely hurt themselves are also not equipped to make those choices. Your comment infers the mental health of an individual.

The rest of your post is a strawman.

[ChainLightning]

Re: Somatoparaphrenia(I wanna cut off my limb disorder!)

Oops. My bad. Once I got to the Ad Hominem I just disregarded the entirety.

[Denarius]

Re: Somatoparaphrenia(I wanna cut off my limb disorder!)

Again, you are using the term "mental illness" in order to make real people's wants and needs irrelevent. As I said, making them a subhuman aberration.

The underlying message you are sending, or at least what I am getting from it, is that you are arbitrally putting a line down that other people shouldn't cross. That, as I said earlier, you know better than them.

The majority of people who drink alcohol, smoke, sleep too long, eat too much don't do it 'on purpose' to create illness...they do it because they most likely have an addiction. (imho, another mental illness, but not the same beast we are talking about, here) Ask them if they want to stop and a large majority would most likely say, 'Yes.' That's very different than smoking large amounts in an attempt to induce lung cancer in yourself -- on purpose.

It's the same basic idea, making a choice about one's body. I drink around a few glasses a week, rarely enough to even get a buzz. If I'm addicted, so what? It was my choice to start drinking, if I grow to regret it then that's my own fault.

Though, perhaps the whole pack a day thing was a bit off topic. What's more in line with my point is transsexuality. The currently accepted "treatment" is sex reassignment therapy, to surgically and/or chemically alter one's sexual characteristics.

It's dangerous, and is based entirely on percieved notions of how one's body should be. Like say having one less limb.

I've looked up treatments for gender dysphoria, and pretty much every one of them revolves around what the patient wants: To be comfortable with their body.

Treatment for gender dysphoria aims to help people with the condition live the way they want to in their preferred gender identity.

It goes into options, and the regulations and such involved with those options. These people don't just go to a hospital and get wanged or dewanged. There is an entire process, and the red tape that entails, but they have OPTIONS. Their feelings and thoughts matter. They aren't just disregarded as the mad ravings of someone who doesn't know any better.

Again, it's their body. What's it to you what they do with it?

[Simon Slade]

Re: Somatoparaphrenia(I wanna cut off my limb disorder!)

I think that mental illness is the correct term. It doesn't make them subhuman. It's addressing a potential problem as a problem. An illness is a type of disease. A disease is "A particular quality, habit, or disposition regarded as adversely affecting a person or group of people."
It is adversely affecting them. It is an illness as much as an addiction is or as much as the flu. It is something that can adversely affect them. Trying to help people is not demeaning them.

[Denarius]

Re: Somatoparaphrenia(I wanna cut off my limb disorder!)

People with mental ilnesses are not subhuman, that's the entire point I was making. My point is that if someone thinks they have more of a right to decide what someone does with their body, than the person who inhabits that body, they are dehumanizing that person.

By your definition gender dysphoria is a mental illness, my question is what makes that different?

Again, it's all well and good to want to help people. When you start removing people's autonomy and self agency, even if it's "for their own good," that is not a good thing. That is a bad thing, that is a totalitarian mindset.

[Simon Slade]

Re: Somatoparaphrenia(I wanna cut off my limb disorder!)

I think that the entire situation isn't nearly as black-and-white as you're trying to make it. If someone has gender dyspmorhpia, they should be helped to make whatever decision makes them comfortable and healthiest - physically, mentally, and emotionally. If someone has somatoparaphrenia, they should be helped to make whatever decision makes them comfortable and healthiest - physically, mentally, and emotionally. It's the same with every illness. If they have schizophrenia, the same. Depression, the same.

It needs to be taken on a case by case basis. Offering someone all of the help available is not removing their autonomy. They can accept the help, and they can refuse the help. It's all very grey, but no action should be forced upon them unless they're a threat to others or themselves. If someone is going to kill themselves, intervention becomes necessary. If they are going to harm others, they should be stopped until they can get help.

[Denarius]

Re: Somatoparaphrenia(I wanna cut off my limb disorder!)

Okay, my point: Of godamned course these people are mentally ill, that's not in question. It's obvious, if they weren't then they'ed be all puppies and rainbows and wouldn't have any problem that needed treatment.

Removing treatment options BECAUSE they are mentally ill is the dumbest thing I have ever heard, if they weren't mentally ill they wouldn't NEED treatment.

I'm not, nor have ever, said that people should hack their limbs off with a hacksaw in their den... But if they want to remove a limb surgically, and they've been consulting a qualified mental health expert AND understand the risks and consquences invloved... Then there is no issue.

This is a matter for the person in question and their doctor.

[cesara]

Re: Somatoparaphrenia(I wanna cut off my limb disorder!)

It's the same basic idea, making a choice about one's body. I drink around a few glasses a week, rarely enough to even get a buzz. If I'm addicted, so what? It was my choice to start drinking, if I grow to regret it then that's my own fault.

Again, it is NOT the same thing. People who are addicted, 99.9% of the time, don't WANT to be addicted. That is the difference.

What's more in line with my point is transsexuality. The currently accepted "treatment" is sex reassignment therapy, to surgically and/or chemically alter one's sexual characteristics.

It's dangerous, and is based entirely on percieved notions of how one's body should be. Like say having one less limb.

I've looked up treatments for gender dysphoria, and pretty much every one of them revolves around what the patient wants: To be comfortable with their body.

Changing from a man to a woman, or woman to a man does not create illness or a physical disability. While all types of surgery hold some level of risk, the desired outcome is NOT illness or the creation of a disability. The desired outcome is a healthy, happy quality of life.

[Denarius]

Re: Somatoparaphrenia(I wanna cut off my limb disorder!)

Quality of life. This is not YOUR life we are talking about, and that's my point. Their desired outcome is not to make themselves disabled, that would be more like munchausen's. They just want to feel normal. To, as you said, have a healthy, happy quality of life.

[Medusa]

Re: Somatoparaphrenia(I wanna cut off my limb disorder!)

I'm not, nor have ever, said that people should hack their limbs off with a hacksaw in their den... But if they want to remove a limb surgically, and they've been consulting a qualified mental health expert AND understand the risks and consquences invloved... Then there is no issue.

This is a matter for the person in question and their doctor.

A qualified expert would never approve of a mentally ill patient undergo a removal of a limb.

[Denarius]

Re: Somatoparaphrenia(I wanna cut off my limb disorder!)

Then they're not doing their job, simple as that. A surgeon wouldn't advise agaisnt amputating a limb because it was gangrenous, that's the reason for doing so in the first place.

Mentally ill, physically ill... It doesn't matter, refusing to treat an illness because they have the illness they're treating is backwards thinking.

[Medusa]

Re: Somatoparaphrenia(I wanna cut off my limb disorder!)

Then they're not doing their job, simple as that. A surgeon wouldn't advise agaisnt amputating a limb because it was gangrenous, that's the reason for doing so in the first place.

Mentally ill, physically ill... It doesn't matter, refusing to treat an illness because they have the illness they're treating is backwards thinking.

I'm sorry. What's your medical degree again?