Somatoparaphrenia(I wanna cut off my limb disorder!)

[Denarius]

Re: Somatoparaphrenia(I wanna cut off my limb disorder!)

I'll take that point, if YOU have a medical degree.

[thalassa]

Re: Somatoparaphrenia(I wanna cut off my limb disorder!)

A sane surgeon that likes their job is not going to perform that surgery because its about more than just the patient's desires...for what is a life threatening procedure and life-long debilitation.

#1 payment--no insurance is going to cover it
#2 licensing and certification--the state board that licenses doctors and the boards that certify doctors will likely revoke their license to practice medicine
#3 possibility of malpractice suits--no waiver is going to absolve a surgeon that cuts someone's arm off that doesn't have a medical reason for it

But if they want to remove a limb surgically, and they've been consulting a qualified mental health expert AND understand the risks and consquences invloved... Then there is no issue.

I'm not sure that's entirely possible in this case.

[Denarius]

Re: Somatoparaphrenia(I wanna cut off my limb disorder!)

A surgeon in the US can give people 1200cc breast implants, make their noses so tiny they can't breathe properly, cut off toes to better fit shoes, surgically implant a cell phone, remove ribs for cosmetic reasons, and above all else it's not unprecendented.

A doctor in Scotland did it at least twice.

It was the most satisfying operation I have ever performed.

[Denarius]

Re: Somatoparaphrenia(I wanna cut off my limb disorder!)

(Refering to patients understanding the risks and consequences involved with amputation.)

I'm not sure that's entirely possible in this case.

Why not? They're most likely not mentally retarded. They're going to be adults of (relatively) sound minds. They are either suffering from body dysmorphic disorder, somatoparaphrenia, or body integrity identity disorder.

None of which impairs cognitive function. They are as intellegent and reasonable as me or you.

They can understand the risks involved as well as anyone, excepting doctors of course, and what's more if they are willing to take that risk and shoulder those burdens... Again, I ask you, who are we to deny them that choice?

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Somatoparaphrenia(I wanna cut off my limb disorder!)

Denarius, if you had ever suffered a serious mental illness you would understand why so many people are against helping somebody with a mental illness do something irrevocably stupid.

Since you clearly have no concept of what it is like to be that ill, I think this topic will always be beyond your comprehension.

[Denarius]

Re: Somatoparaphrenia(I wanna cut off my limb disorder!)

Irrevovably stupid, like a transman getting a hysterectomy?

You are arguing to take away someone's autonomy, because you think that you are better qualified to make choices about their body. I'm sorry, but it's as simple as that.

Would you rather they do this to themselves? It happens. They shoot themselves, tie limbs off with tourniquets, lay them on train tracks, hack them off with saws...

That kind of thing is fairly common with transsexuals as well. There was even somone who performed vaginoplasty on themselves, in the bathroom, and did a good job on it as well.

In a hospital it's relatively safe, regulated, and they'd have to go through mandatory counseling first. You know, which is what transsexuals go through. To treat THEIR dysphoria.

[Medusa]

Re: Somatoparaphrenia(I wanna cut off my limb disorder!)

I'll take that point, if YOU have a medical degree.

I wasn't making any claims about doctors. You were. But we can ask the one dude with medical degree here. Dumuzi! I'm sure he's going to be somewhere between your opinion and mine.

[Simon Slade]

Re: Somatoparaphrenia(I wanna cut off my limb disorder!)

Irrevovably stupid, like a transman getting a hysterectomy?

You are arguing to take away someone's autonomy, because you think that you are better qualified to make choices about their body. I'm sorry, but it's as simple as that.

Would you rather they do this to themselves? It happens. They shoot themselves, tie limbs off with tourniquets, lay them on train tracks, hack them off with saws...

That kind of thing is fairly common with transsexuals as well. There was even somone who performed vaginoplasty on themselves, in the bathroom, and did a good job on it as well.

In a hospital it's relatively safe, regulated, and they'd have to go through mandatory counseling first. You know, which is what transsexuals go through. To treat THEIR dysphoria.

You're not getting it. No one is trying to take away autonomy. They're trying to help people who need help. Yes, doctors are more qualified to make medical decisions. Yes, psychologists are more qualified about your mental state. You keep trying to link this back to transsexualism, but it's not the same. If someone has an operation to alter their gender, they aren't disabling themselves. When you cut off a limb, you are removing part of your body irrevocably.

Look, I've never suffered a dysmorphic disorder, but I have struggled with depression. And speaking as someone who has a mental illness, I know I'm not really qualified to make any decisions while I'm in that state.

[Denarius]

Re: Somatoparaphrenia(I wanna cut off my limb disorder!)

And transsexuals aren't irrevocably removing parts of their bodies? Because I looked it up, and it happens thousands of times a year.

The only difference is that you value having four functional limbs more than peace of mind. That's fine, no one is forcing you to have your limbs chopped off. However, you are entirely dismissing the very real concerns these people have.

Again, if someone wants to disable themselves... That's their decision. They've proven time and again that they will disable themselves if they think that's their only option.

Amputation done by a professional in a hospital enviorment is relatively safe. Like srs, it would most likely require couciling and waiting periods. Regulation.

You all are treating disability like a fate worse than death. In this day and age the quality of life of a disabled person is not that diminished.

In fact there are surveys

[Simon Slade]

Re: Somatoparaphrenia(I wanna cut off my limb disorder!)

And transsexuals aren't irrevocably removing parts of their bodies? Because I looked it up, and it happens thousands of times a year.

The only difference is that you value having four functional limbs more than peace of mind. That's fine, no one is forcing you to have your limbs chopped off. However, you are entirely dismissing the very real concerns these people have.

Again, if someone wants to disable themselves... That's their decision. They've proven time and again that they will disable themselves if they think that's their only option.

Have you ever heard of bifurcation? Because this^ is it. It's not either-I'm-free-to-harm-myself-or-I'm-not-free-at-all. It's a very complicated issue. And no one has treated "disability like a fate worse than death". We've been treating disability like a fate worse than not being disabled. And I, for one, have never said that amputation is never an option. I'm saying that all options need to be pursued before it is taken.

Please, try to look at this as if the world is something other than black or white.

[Denarius]

Re: Somatoparaphrenia(I wanna cut off my limb disorder!)

I never said amputation was or should be the only option, merely that it should be an option and that people should have the right to do with their bodies what they will.

[Simon Slade]

Re: Somatoparaphrenia(I wanna cut off my limb disorder!)

I never said amputation was or should be the only option, merely that it should be an option and that people should have the right to do with their bodies what they will.

No, you never said that explicitly. But you have accused anyone daring to propose another idea as "totalitarian", of "backwards thinking", and "removing people's autonomy and self agency". You've done your best to set this up as your way, which has only ever talked about amputation, or the wrong way. If you're only talking about it as an option, you should say as much.

[Denarius]

Re: Somatoparaphrenia(I wanna cut off my limb disorder!)

I'm not saying other options are bad, just the opposite! Having options is what my argument is about.

I would be just as up in arms about this if it was about medication or some sort of therapy they didn't agree with.

Therapy is an option, medication is an option, amputation should be an option as well.

Removing amputation as an option, especially if you do so because you think they are mentally unfit to make a decicion like that, IS restricting peoples' self agency. That is what I'm angry about, because it is absolutely dehumanizing people.

[ChainLightning]

Re: Somatoparaphrenia(I wanna cut off my limb disorder!)

Removing amputation as an option, especially if you do so because you think they are mentally unfit to make a decicion like that, IS restricting peoples' self agency. That is what I'm angry about, because it is absolutely dehumanizing people.

I'm only angry because you keep referring back to transsexuals as an example of EXISTING surgical alteration. Since the subject is about a disease, a mental illness, your example is either supposed fit as how mentally ill transsexuals are, wanting a sex change, or it's supposed to fit as an example of how incapable they are of making rational decisions.

Neither, of which, are true. They are quite capable of consulting doctors AND understanding the risks.

Mentally ill patients, however, do not have the mental HEALTH required for such consultation and understanding. Apparently, you don't know what a mental illness MEANS. They are not of "right mind", they are mentally ILL. I'm all for the varied options of treatment, as I've stated, quite clearly from the get-go. But I'm not all gung-ho about avoiding the disease, altogether, and lopping off a symptom. Once the patient gets healthy again, IF they even GET their mental health back, they cannot undo that "sick" decision they made, WHILE they were suffering from their illness. Any medical position HAS to take into account the mental state of somebody seeking MAJOR surgery. First.

Even that article, in the link you posted, about the doctor that offed a couple of limbs, back in the 90's, blatantly stated that the procedure is no longer done - it's no longer considered appropriate treatment, it's not covered by insurance, malpractice or otherwise.



Should amputation BE an option? That depends on a whole host of other issues, including the current status of the patient's mind, the number of other treatments tried, and the medical, as well as the legal, ramifications of a VOLUNTARY major disability, etc., etc..
NOTE: Transsexuals do not fit this description, as they are not patients being treated for a mental illness!

[Denarius]

Re: Somatoparaphrenia(I wanna cut off my limb disorder!)

^Only because transsexuality is no longer considered a mental illness.

A person wants to change their sex, that's perfectly fine and dandy! A person wants to remove a limb, that is JUST as distressing as gender dysphoria, suddenly they're mentally ill and unfit for ANY of the same consideration and understanding.