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Difficult time with a dear friends point of veiw on holidays

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    Difficult time with a dear friends point of veiw on holidays

    Im a student at a private christian college. I have come here for a two reasons, 1) to learn about this faith and 2) very small classes. My largest class has had over 30 students counting myself. Its been rather nice.

    I have even made afew very close friends. One is a bible major, he and i get along great ! another friend of mine is a history major. He and i have had some great talks and still do. When my history friend and i jump on the topic of faith, we tend to talk about the christians incorporating pagan symbols, holidays and all of that good stuff into their faith. When we talk about modern holidays he still calms that christmas and easter are stand alone holidays and have nothing to do with the pagan faith...This is very untrue, and i have given facts, books, and even history channel links to him over this topic. His main point is that the names of the holidays make them Godly days. Never mind what they are made of or whats going on during the time of celebration. I do not see how the change of names turns the days from pagan to godly ?

    I have showed him The Wheel of The Year, i have given him books on Yule and Ostara. But cant reach him. He will give me everything else Imbolc, Beltane, Midsummer, Lughnasadh, Mabon, Samhain. But Christmas and easter have nothing to do with the pagan faith ?

    I do not know what else to say or to show him and it comes up everytime we have a drink. We do not fight over it...but at the same time its almost like he likes to bring the topic up just to say "check mate" one more time.

    #2
    Re: Difficult time with a dear friends point of veiw on holidays

    Firstly, some things you just have to agree to disagree on.

    Secondly I think your friend might have a point. I know it's recieved wisdom in the Pagan world that teh nasty Xtians stole Xmas and Easter. But I have my doubts and here's why. Starting with Christmas - the original date of Christmas, before the calender changes, was the 7th January, and it still is celebrated then in orthodox places. This puts it a good fortnight and a bit after the solstice. I have no doubt that some of the methods of celebration (Yule logs for example) have been transferred over and, as you say, symbols have been incorporated. The use of greenery as a decoration is one thing that's often pointed to - but if you were going to decorate your dwelling for festivities of any sort back then what would you use but available greenery? As for Easter, the name comes from Ostara, so in Northern Europe the name was transferred but, given Christianity is a Middle-Eastern religion and worship of Ostara was a European tradition I suspect it's simply the name, and perhaps some of the folk rites of Spring that got associated with it. It is after all a celebration of resurrection and so Spring type symbols would naturally be a very good fit.

    Thirdly, why does it matter?
    * * *
    You can find some of my creative writing at http://libbyscribbles.com

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      #3
      Re: Difficult time with a dear friends point of veiw on holidays

      Originally posted by Maythe View Post
      Firstly, some things you just have to agree to disagree on.

      Secondly I think your friend might have a point. I know it's recieved wisdom in the Pagan world that teh nasty Xtians stole Xmas and Easter. But I have my doubts and here's why. Starting with Christmas - the original date of Christmas, before the calender changes, was the 7th January, and it still is celebrated then in orthodox places. This puts it a good fortnight and a bit after the solstice. I have no doubt that some of the methods of celebration (Yule logs for example) have been transferred over and, as you say, symbols have been incorporated. The use of greenery as a decoration is one thing that's often pointed to - but if you were going to decorate your dwelling for festivities of any sort back then what would you use but available greenery? As for Easter, the name comes from Ostara, so in Northern Europe the name was transferred but, given Christianity is a Middle-Eastern religion and worship of Ostara was a European tradition I suspect it's simply the name, and perhaps some of the folk rites of Spring that got associated with it. It is after all a celebration of resurrection and so Spring type symbols would naturally be a very good fit.

      Thirdly, why does it matter?
      It matters to my friend and i. I have never set out to say "Graham, you are wrong.". You know more info then my friend and are able to give me a new point of veiw with backing. Which as already lead me to think in other ways.

      at this point in time with this topic between my frined and i...its much like an ingrown toenail.

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        #4
        Re: Difficult time with a dear friends point of veiw on holidays

        Originally posted by DustinHayden View Post
        ..its much like an ingrown toenail.
        Ow I know topics can get like that sometimes, especially when it's something you care about and you care about the person too! I might well be wrong anyway, it's just... I'm not convinced it's as black and white as it's often presented.
        * * *
        You can find some of my creative writing at http://libbyscribbles.com

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          #5
          Re: Difficult time with a dear friends point of veiw on holidays

          You might want to pick up a copy of Ronald Hutton's Stations of the Sun...
          Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
          sigpic

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            #6
            Re: Difficult time with a dear friends point of veiw on holidays

            I know it's annoying, but I think your friend's refusal to accept the evidence, is an indication that it is important to him to hold onto this belief. It might be better just to let him hold onto this one. I have had slightly similar experiences with fellow Wiccans, who refuse to accept even the possibility that Wicca isn't an unbroken line of initiation dating back to neolithic times. This belief gives them validation of their path, it matters to them for one reason or another, so I don't feel I have the right to throw books like Truimph of the Moon at them. In this hostile modern world, if something, anything, gives someone comfort, so long as it's not down right bigoted, I don't feel a humble nobody (in the grander scheme of things), like me, has any right to try to take that from them.

            I say show how much you care for your friend, by having the humility to let him have this one. Argue about politics or sport instead..
            夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

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              #7
              Re: Difficult time with a dear friends point of veiw on holidays

              Originally posted by Jembru View Post
              I know it's annoying, but I think your friend's refusal to accept the evidence, is an indication that it is important to him to hold onto this belief. It might be better just to let him hold onto this one. I have had slightly similar experiences with fellow Wiccans, who refuse to accept even the possibility that Wicca isn't an unbroken line of initiation dating back to neolithic times. This belief gives them validation of their path, it matters to them for one reason or another, so I don't feel I have the right to throw books like Triumph of the Moon at them. In this hostile modern world, if something, anything, gives someone comfort, so long as it's not down right bigoted, I don't feel a humble nobody (in the grander scheme of things), like me, has any right to try to take that from them.

              I say show how much you care for your friend, by having the humility to let him have this one. Argue about politics or sport instead..
              ^^^ All that. It's so well expressed, I can't even add anything of my own, but I wanted to +1 it
              The forum member formerly known as perzephone. Or Perze. I've shed a skin.

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                #8
                Re: Difficult time with a dear friends point of veiw on holidays

                At some point you will come to realize this: You are friends. Not teacher and student. Just pass on it dude.
                Satan is my spirit animal

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                  #9
                  Re: Difficult time with a dear friends point of veiw on holidays

                  Thank you all for the replys and info.

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