Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

[orchestrion]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

Oh I didn't know this was about on line stuff. I was just thinking of maybe someone like Mrs Penry and what she does. She's good and sincere. I think she should be compensated for what she does if she wanted it. Know what I mean? I'm not sure about on-line stuff. I guess you have to do your due diligence in these cases.

The original post mentioned online lessons in Wiccan practices grouped in with the whole main idea of charging for lessons. So I guess it's hard to generalize that way and you kind of have to break it down by circumstance.

[Medusa]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

The original post mentioned online lessons in Wiccan practices grouped in with the whole main idea of charging for lessons. So I guess it's hard to generalize that way and you kind of have to break it down by circumstance.

Well it's a service. So..yeah that's all I got!

[Jembru]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

I think most of the 'schools' honestly believe in what they are doing. I've never come over one that didn't make me giggle into my tea, but then I'm very judgemental like that. I have done two online courses: child protection (I needed it for work) and a TEFL (to help me get teaching work). In both cases, I was just reading pages then ticking boxes, yet both were expensive (the college I worked for paid for the child protection certificate). In the case of online witch schools or whatever, I understand that you get a mentor who teaches you via email, in which case, that's a lot more hands on than I had in my expensive online courses. So I do think you're usually getting some kind of value.

As for whether the material is any good, well, like I said at the start of my last post: a fool and his money are easily parted. And I should know.. I bought a talking zombie last week, and a hypnosis recording to help me remember vocabulary. It WILL work, it has to, I paid cash money!!!!

[Gardenia]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

I don't see anything wrong with charging for classes or the like. It's similar to paying for divination, spell work, books, or other tools. Most people don't expect someone to work for them for free, or to write a book/craft an item for free, so why should someone who goes out of their way to teach not be allowed to charge for their time? Especially true if this person has to rent a space, or is buying materials for the class. Even online classes need to pay for web hosting, and people to support the site.

That said, yeah, there are plenty of people out there overcharging or running scams - online and offline. Individuals have to judge what they feel a particular service is worth, and use their brain to make sure they're not getting scammed. However, not everyone who charges is running a scam, and I think it's silly to think something should be free just because it's 'spiritual.' If you don't want to pay for it, fine, but that doesn't mean the other person is in the wrong because they think their time and efforts are worth something.

[MaskedOne]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

If it's one's means of making a living it makes sense but I don't think expending time on something should inherently = compensation. You spend time on volunteer work and don't expect compensation because generally speaking you care about the cause you're devoting time to and that's enough.

Time does not always equal cash. As however, not everyone is independently wealthy, I'm not going to pre-judge against those who would like to see some return on time that could be spent in other ways. I'm happy to give credit to volunteer teachers but expecting that as a norm diminishes the volunteers and unnecessarily degrades those who can't afford or simply can't be bothered to spend 20-40 plus hours plus expenses a week on your behalf for free. Paganism, if one takes it's propaganda at face value, is not a missionary path. There is no divine order to go forth and spread the 'Good News' and there's certainly no directive to do so completely at one's own expense. In the absence of such a directive, I can't blame people for expecting payment for services rendered.

[JamesByrne]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

Question. For those Pagan peeps (the whole umbrella term): What do you think your ancestors charged for their services? I'm almost certain it wasn't free. Probably food or goods or favors were used as compensation.

Id be certain no one pre christian charged. We live in completely different societies to pre christian peoples, like theyd have a stroke on seeing traffic we would never adjust to the massive social stratification in tribal societies. Wed be strangers and if we werent killed wed live as slaves or starve no matter how fancy pants our tech is.

Specifically here in Ireland Id say no for 2 reasons 1. Tribal society and 2 no organised religion.

I dont wanna get preachy... so I cut back my post big style but 1 In a tribal society things arent equal but they are interdependant so independant means to make and recieve payment doesnt really exist. Irish brehon law if we take it to have an earlier prechristian background is an example. If someone existed outside the sytem of clientship that drove the economies and was the basis for order in the societies of the day theyd be like a lost sheep in a forest of wolves, everyone had duties to the people above and below them in the tribe without anyone of lesser or higher status to call on for assistance. Theyd be boned on all fronts.

2 Knowledge is exoteric in tribal cultures. In fact the large public rituals implied in the big ritual enclosures depend on the symbols and actions used being widely understood so the type of esoteric priesthood we have now and can imagine projected into the past might not function in a tribal society. All you have to do is look at what happens at big public rituals to see how a subjective reality affects outsiders.

And most importantly common sense dictates you wouldnt pay someone to do something you can do yourself.

[Jembru]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

^ so all Celtic coins in museums are fakes? I like your theory, but I'm afraid I can't buy into the, 'life was fair an everyone got along before the Christians' ideal. Of course, neither of us was there, so nothing says you are wrong. It's just that the evidence really, really piles up in favour of trade existing long before those evil Christians ruined civilisation!

[thalassa]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

I think it is perfectly okay to charge someone for the time, effort, energy, supplies, etc that go into teaching any sort of class, be it Pagan in nature or not. And the insistence that teaching should be free, IMO, doesn't say much for the willingness of the student to sacrifice for knowlege--in a modern economy, money is a sacrifice. Its fine for someone to be certain that they are getting their money's worth...but a teacher should be able to get the worth of their time back as well. Basically, if you are refusing to pay for a class, then you are saying that its not worth anything to you. That's well and good, unless its actually knowledge or training that you want and that you expect to find value in---which is radically different than being defrauded. No one *owes* you their knowledge or experience. It takes time and effort and energy (and often money) to gain them in the first place, the expectation that a teacher is obligated to pass them on without compensation, IMO is disrespectful and selfish...and cheap.

Other than that, I totally agree with Gardenia.

TBH, I think there is a huge problem with the attitude towards money in many Pagan circles...not just with regards to teaching, but just in general. There have actually been a number of posts this year for the Pagan Values Blogging Month that discuss this phenomenon...and its larger issues/implications.

http://hecatedemeter.wordpress.com/2012/06/09/3062/

http://chrysalis1witchesjourney.wordpress.com/2009/01/21/invoking-the-power-of-the-pagan-dollar-20/

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daughtersofeve/2012/06/pagan-finance-supporting-the-pagan-economy/

http://blog.dianarajchel.com/2012/06/18/paganvalues-misplaced-values/

[Medusa]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

Id be certain no one pre christian charged. We live in completely different societies to pre christian peoples, like theyd have a stroke on seeing traffic we would never adjust to the massive social stratification in tribal societies. Wed be strangers and if we werent killed wed live as slaves or starve no matter how fancy pants our tech is.

Have you ever watched Nat Geo? Hey you want a wife from my tribe? Can I get 4 piggies please. Hey you want some of this piggy? Let's swap for your goat. Hey you want me to shoo away your ghost illness? That will be 2 hut tops thanks please do come again.

Are you kidding me? What do Christians have to do with barter and trade. Which..is what getting paid for a service is. We just do it with money instead of the thing we want to buy with the money.

[Juniper]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

Id be certain no one pre christian charged. We live in completely different societies to pre christian peoples, like theyd have a stroke on seeing traffic we would never adjust to the massive social stratification in tribal societies. Wed be strangers and if we werent killed wed live as slaves or starve no matter how fancy pants our tech is.

Specifically here in Ireland Id say no for 2 reasons 1. Tribal society and 2 no organised religion.

I dont wanna get preachy... so I cut back my post big style but 1 In a tribal society things arent equal but they are interdependant so independant means to make and recieve payment doesnt really exist. Irish brehon law if we take it to have an earlier prechristian background is an example. If someone existed outside the sytem of clientship that drove the economies and was the basis for order in the societies of the day theyd be like a lost sheep in a forest of wolves, everyone had duties to the people above and below them in the tribe without anyone of lesser or higher status to call on for assistance. Theyd be boned on all fronts.

2 Knowledge is exoteric in tribal cultures. In fact the large public rituals implied in the big ritual enclosures depend on the symbols and actions used being widely understood so the type of esoteric priesthood we have now and can imagine projected into the past might not function in a tribal society. All you have to do is look at what happens at big public rituals to see how a subjective reality affects outsiders.

I know this isn't in academics or debate...but I'm gonna want to see some sources that back your claims up there.

And most importantly common sense dictates you wouldnt pay someone to do something you can do yourself.

If everyone can do it themselves, why would they be seeking a teacher to learn from, in the first place? Obviously, not everyone is born with the knowledge that's being taught by teachers and workshop instructors.

I feel like I'm missing a point here.

[thalassa]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

I saw a Lughnasadh festival going on near me that charges 60 USD for an adult to attend. Thats absurd! Most of it should be introspective or communal bonding and ritual or crafting with your own hands.

I can't speak for this festival itself...but knowing some folks that put on a festival...its not cheap.

First there is the site, then the insurance, then the permits, the waivers (especially if kids are allowed to attend) and forms (which=copy fees, printer paper and ink, etc), signs and banners, shirts or other ways to designate staff, wristbands/badges/etc to designate attendees, equipment and supplies (like radios, first aid stuff, tents, etc), speakers (which usually charge at least travel costs and accomodations if they have to travel to get there), etc.

Around here, a 3-4 day festival will cost about $100, and $30 for a one day pass...and they really aren't making money on it...at best, they are making enough money to pay the up-front costs for the next festival.

[Medusa]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

Sheesh everyone wants something for free. Imagine if all your customers wanted your services for free?

[orchestrion]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

I can't speak for this festival itself...but knowing some folks that put on a festival...its not cheap.

First there is the site, then the insurance, then the permits, the waivers (especially if kids are allowed to attend) and forms (which=copy fees, printer paper and ink, etc), signs and banners, shirts or other ways to designate staff, wristbands/badges/etc to designate attendees, equipment and supplies (like radios, first aid stuff, tents, etc), speakers (which usually charge at least travel costs and accomodations if they have to travel to get there), etc.

Around here, a 3-4 day festival will cost about $100, and $30 for a one day pass...and they really aren't making money on it...at best, they are making enough money to pay the up-front costs for the next festival.

Hmmm. Thats fair. This was the first one I looked into so I honestly don't know. I just don't know who'd be going to something like that for that much money around here. It just sounds like it would limit attendance really heavily and seemed over the top to me because I've definitely gone to non-pagan festivals for free or much cheaper. But i guess it varies by circumstance.

[JamesByrne]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

I know this isn't in academics or debate...but I'm gonna want to see some sources that back your claims up there.

Eisheth Im wary of doing that. I would be willing to do it for you in PM since youre paying for the site and Im grateful to have a site to chat on but while I like celtic neopaganism and I think it can do a lot for the practitioner psychologically, emotionally and spiritually I feel strongly that a personal interest in history, cultures, language, music and so on should be appreciated seperately from neopaganism. Its like a harp maker who makes musical instruments that are played and a harp maker who only showcases the skill at living history reinactments... both are good but should be mutually exclusive so they can be appreciated fully in their own right.

If everyone can do it themselves, why would they be seeking a teacher to learn from, in the first place?

While knowledge is exoteric we are talking about a ritual specialist who isnt manufacturing something like a harp with his hands. To be valued his product requires public consent that the practitioner is compitant and as with all trades competance can also be a measure of social status. So like the Alexandrians who are unhappy with a bought initiation devaluing their trad so the people who worked hard to aquire knowledge might have wanted to safeguard their status in some way. For example in central africa at the turn of the 20th century the knowledge of 'medicines' was a guage of a ritual specialist. While you could get the herbs anywhere you had to learn knowledge it from someone publically so everyone knew that you knew and so your status among them as a ritual lad would rise accordingly.

I feel like I'm missing a point here.

I chopped it back a bit and parts are missing but tbh I dont think most people are going to care. If I posted the big feckin essay Id written there itd just elicit the same 0__0 face I make when someone goes on about somethin on a forum. If you want to chat im happy enough.

[Medusa]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

For example in central africa at the turn of the 20th century the knowledge of 'medicines' was a guage of a ritual specialist. While you could get the herbs anywhere you had to learn knowledge it from someone publically so everyone knew that you knew and so your status among them as a ritual lad would rise accordingly.

Ok. Am I missing something too? Paying for a service. So I am the head medicine dude of this tribe. And I've had showings in public. People believe me. I've moved up in status. Great. I get that. Now...if you want my special handy dandy herb pouch to give you some vim in your nether regions...I will be asking for payment of some kind. Whatever your currency of the tribe is. It might be other herbs, goods, wives. It could also be money.

Am I seriously missing the point here? Or are we getting some long winded way of not addressing pay for services?