Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #31
    Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

    From my understanding, throughout history all tribal cultures had some system of payment, pre christian or otherwise, and expected payment for services. I'm relatively certain that prehistoric peoples didn't originally have a market system like we do but this was mostly because they didn't partake in trade with other tribes until later. Of course this intensified with the catholic church to a rather abusive degree but as i said even in the case of the gallic druids, they didn't receive monetary payment but were exempt from taxes and drafts which i'd say is pretty damn good payment. If jamesbyrne has some source that sites information contrary to that i'm honestly really curious.
    My argument personally is just that since thats not most peoples' career paths and doesn't have to be in today's culture it's not necessary to pay for spiritual education or especially not membership within a certain religion but it mostly varies by circumstance. I kind of feel spirituality is the sort of thing that should be shared out of wanting to share it but i can see wanting to share it at a price. I just might be a bit wary of some anonymous intenet stranger telling me I can become a proper Wiccan or something for a price.

    selume proferre

    Comment


      #32
      Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

      Originally posted by Medusa View Post
      Have you ever watched Nat Geo? Hey you want a wife from my tribe? Can I get 4 piggies please. Hey you want some of this piggy? Let's swap for your goat. Hey you want me to shoo away your ghost illness? That will be 2 hut tops thanks please do come again.
      I dunno what to say to you here Medusa. Do you have a question or are you telling me Im wrong? youre entitled to your opinion I guess. Theres more then one valid way to look at a thing.

      Are you kidding me? What do Christians have to do with barter and trade. Which..is what getting paid for a service is. We just do it with money instead of the thing we want to buy with the money.
      Im using pre christian to date the system of trade. Ancestors as a term didnt do it for me.

      Your way is valid but its not universally true. Economies and societies were not all primative versions of modern life, like our societies didnt go from Rocks - Barter cos we were too dumb to make money - money isnt this easier now!?. They were complex and radically different. In medieval Ireland for example there were no towns, we just never did towns until they were forced on us. People lived in ring forts seperate from each other and people in the geographical area werent even related to each other only the chieftains were cousins so people got together much less frequently in the renne faire way that allows for barter and trade.

      They did get together roughly 8 times and the festivals occur at harvests and when sheep are born and when cattle are born so its likely that those things couldve been traded. We arent talking about common barter though theres no empirical measurement in brehon law to say 8 bushels of corn is the same as a pig and four pigs is the same as a cow and there would be if that type of trade was going on. You cant take a leak without there being a law for it and that cow probably isnt yours to trade anyway. Its the Cheiftains.

      - - - Updated - - -

      Originally posted by Medusa View Post
      Ok. Am I missing something too? Paying for a service. So I am the head medicine dude of this tribe. And I've had showings in public. People believe me. I've moved up in status. Great. I get that. Now...if you want my special handy dandy herb pouch to give you some vim in your nether regions...I will be asking for payment of some kind. Whatever your currency of the tribe is. It might be other herbs, goods, wives. It could also be money.

      Am I seriously missing the point here? Or are we getting some long winded way of not addressing pay for services?
      I dunno what youre missing you have to tell me clearly to see if I can explain... maybe Im just wrong.

      What Im trying to say is there is no money and knowledge is exoteric so even if there was you wouldnt pay someone for somethin you could do yourself or as your mate to do for free.

      All these dudes live together in a village, they have different families but are all the same kin group and rely on each other to survive. They are tribal so they all draw on the same knowledge base and the same resources... they dont have a sense of personal responsibility or private ownership in the way we do.

      The head guy you have giving out herbal viagra isnt a priest, knowledge is exoteric and communal like everything else, hes just considered the best at what he does. Like if john grows bigger pumpkins then steve hes the go to guy for pumpkins. Like animism isnt a religion its a way of viewing the world, these guys arent practicing an organised religion they just have a way of seeing and doing things. Theres no priest. What he does is no different to what everyone else whos lead a ritual led for generations does, anyone can copy the ritual they just wont be as good, and anyone can get the viagra herbs they just wont be as potent. They can all do divination, cure with medicines. Why would they pay the guy?

      The ritual specialist doesnt get that much credit he doesnt supercede the social order thats an organised religion thing trying to force gods law over the secular. Take the Zande in central africa are all famous for their poison oracles a chicken is poisoned and whatever way it dies is interpreted. When 2 guys ask their oracle the same thing and it comes out different, they dont go to the guy with the most medicine, social roles kick in, they go to the authority, the chief. He does an oracle and thats the final word. No one is paid. Theres no money anyway.

      And if theres no money in the past for pagans then theres no way for a neopagan to legitimise what they do based on what pagans did in the past.

      Why youd want to do that anyway is beyond me, we live in capitalist societies theres no point in referring back to a different type of society to legitimise somethin thats only been around a couple of hundred years. Its like trying to legitimise spending millions on a space station based on vikings sailing to vinniland. 0_o
      Last edited by JamesByrne; 03 Jul 2012, 21:39.

      Comment


        #33
        Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

        I think any society - tribal or otherwise - that has a priesthood (and most do and have in some shape or form) are putting that person separate and apart from the rest of the tribe. In other words you have a priest precisely because the knowledge is not freely available and not just anyone can do it.

        But I admit to haveing my own axe to grind here, so as someone who charges for my books and has charged for rune readings, I would like to explain why I do.... so here goes.

        When I write a book (and I've had four published so far) as HUGE amount of research goes into it. For what I get from writing, I would be better off washing dishes somewhere. Writing is incredibly hard work, not something I do when I'm in the mood, but every single day. When I'm ill, when I'm rushed, when the puppy has just vomited everywhere. It's what I do.

        But I also write because I believe I have interesting and sometimes important information that needs sharing. I put in a lot of hard work. I often provide info and sources that isn't easily available. If you can give me a good reason why I should be your slave and do all that for free, than I would love to hear it.

        I am however, aware that money is tight. And that's why I set up my own press, The Wolfenhowle Press so that I had complete control over everything - including pricing. Which means that my books are now a more reasonable price because there are no middle men (apart from printers, the ISBN process and the people who sell the book wanting their commission.) Isn't it funny that nobody starts a thread playing holy hell about pay pal wanting their commission, or Barnes and Noble, but the originator of the work, without whom there would be nothing, is supposed to work pro bono?

        I have recently started posting my first book on Kindle. Copyright issues (I was with another publisher) mean I can't do this with my first three books and my publisher is in no apparent rush to make them available on Kindle. However, I have covered my costs on the printed copies and therefore slashed the book price on Kindle. Should I go one further and give the bloody book away? No. My book took a lot of hard work. I am passing the savings (no printer, the ISBN is already paid etc) on to the customer. I'm kind that way

        My magazine articles are all done for free. They act as a kind of publicity for my writing. But they still require hours of work and research. Bet some of you thought I got paid for that too, eh?

        Then there's my radio show. Again - I work for free. I do it because I believe in what I have to say and I want to reach people. I set up my own podcast site (at my own expense) because I want people to be able to listen to them whenever they want to. It takes a huge amount of time and effort to record, edit and then re-edit as podcasts. And I don't get a penny.

        Then there's my free e-newsletter. More free advertising, the cynical might think. But actually, those of you here who subscribe to it (and if you want to, just send me a pm) will know that I often run free competitions.

        Then there are my talks... now the organisers charge for those, but it's a one off charge with the children of Artemis in that you pay the entrance fee and everything (the entertainment goes on well into the wee small hours) is free thereafter (unless you choose to buy something). So actually, it's very reasonable in the long run. It is what you make of it.... 16 hours of talks, workshops, rock bands, Damh the Bard... and we're all working for expenses only and a small fee at the end of it.

        Now, let me tell you about those talks.... they're 45 minutes long, they take hours of work and research beforehand... I work about 6 - 7 hours non-stop. By the end I'm getting by on painkillers and throat sprays. Oh, and make up... because nobody is ever going to see me looking like I feel some days (for those new to the forum I have quite a few health problems.)

        Do you see any of that before you start complaining that it's 'wrong' to charge?

        I think I do quite enough to justify charging for what I do. And as I've explained, a lot is for free anyway. I get letters and emails from all over the world from people wanting me to sort out their hauntings, poltergeists, hexes, undo spells etc., and I do it all.... yup, for free.

        www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


        Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

        Comment


          #34
          Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

          Originally posted by JamesByrne View Post
          I dunno what to say to you here Medusa. Do you have a question or are you telling me Im wrong? youre entitled to your opinion I guess. Theres more then one valid way to look at a thing.
          Here's my issue... you're not presenting opinion, you're speaking of history, of facts.

          And if theres no money in the past for pagans then theres no way for a neopagan to legitimise what they do based on what pagans did in the past.
          Pagan is a hugely broad term, as is pre-Christian. There certainly was money in some pre-Christian, pagan societies. This idea that pagans didn't have money, that there was no money and no sale of (or barter for) religious related services in the entire period before Christianity is just factually incorrect.
          Last edited by Gardenia; 03 Jul 2012, 22:19.
          Hearth and Hedge

          Comment


            #35
            Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

            I dunno what to say to you here Medusa. Do you have a question or are you telling me Im wrong? youre entitled to your opinion I guess. Theres more then one valid way to look at a thing.
            I think you are wrong. There are indeed more than one way to look at something.
            The right way and the wrong way. YOU claimed your point but refuse to back it up. I claimed mine. Go just watch any nat geo documentary. It ain't that hard. ::
            I googled. The lazy woman's way (it's almost midnight)
            Pre-Christian Ireland, including an account of Queen Maeve, the Assembly at Tara, etc., from 'A History of Ireland and Her People' by Eleanor Hull

            Pre Christian history. Mentioning....
            The chief business of each province was transacted at public assemblies, to which people from all parts of the province congregated and to which merchants, native and foreign, brought their wares for sale.
            Ossory or Southern Leinster retained its own important fair of Carmen, which was divided into three parts, "a market of food, a market of live stock, and a great market of foreign goods." It is said to have been attended by Greeks, bartering gold and splendid clothing. One slope was given up to racing, another to cooking, and a third to women employed in making embroideries. The preliminary public business of law-giving and the execution of justice being disposed of, debts having been settled, arrests and distraints composed, and horse-racing tricks reprimanded, the company gave themselves over to gaiety and buying, while jugglers, bone-men, fiddlers, pipers, and masked actors carried on their trades in one part, and storytellers related the ever-fresh Fenian tales of destructions, cattle-preys, and courtships to crowds who never wearied of hearing them.
            Last edited by Medusa; 03 Jul 2012, 22:39.
            Satan is my spirit animal

            Comment


              #36
              Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

              The only things I can say in defense of my opinions there Gardenia is the sciences deal in facts the arts are subject to interpretation and while there may be money in some pre christian societies all I can talk about is what I know Ireland and even that much might not be pre christian.

              There are lots of different theories in an arts subject and some are more popular then others but none are right or wrong. Its not something to get upset about.More then that if I wanted to make a career for myself as an academic i would ideally make a name for myself rather then be a staunch solid academic. I could say something just cos its mad and for no other reason and have a professorship off the back of it. Pffft. With that as the standard theres absolutely no reason to be upset over history. Weigh the options see what you like and we go on with our bad selves.

              Comment


                #37
                Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

                Originally posted by JamesByrne View Post
                The only things I can say in defense of my opinions there Gardenia is the sciences deal in facts the arts are subject to interpretation and while there may be money in some pre christian societies all I can talk about is what I know Ireland and even that much might not be pre christian.
                Oops. You might want to read my link.
                Satan is my spirit animal

                Comment


                  #38
                  Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

                  Originally posted by JamesByrne View Post
                  The only things I can say in defense of my opinions there Gardenia is the sciences deal in facts the arts are subject to interpretation and while there may be money in some pre christian societies all I can talk about is what I know Ireland and even that much might not be pre christian.

                  There are lots of different theories in an arts subject and some are more popular then others but none are right or wrong. Its not something to get upset about.More then that if I wanted to make a career for myself as an academic i would ideally make a name for myself rather then be a staunch solid academic. I could say something just cos its mad and for no other reason and have a professorship off the back of it. Pffft. With that as the standard theres absolutely no reason to be upset over history. Weigh the options see what you like and we go on with our bad selves.
                  I'm sorry- are you saying that historical fact is invalid because people with reputations in the field can say whatever they want? :\ while i believe that history is often presented with a cultural bias I'm a little bothered by any argument that states "well science/history/etc could all be a lie". The simple fact that pre Christian civilizations did use currency or some compensation for religious services is true, that won't suddenly be disproven, and the historical thing seems to be a big huge tangent anyway.

                  (sorry for all the typos, i'm using my phone to post this.)

                  selume proferre

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

                    Its interpretation Medusa "chief business of each province" to me means political business not fiscal and carmen is literary not a real festival carmun is a female name an attempt at a replication of the story of the lughnasa festival at tailtiu - the mother of lugh. Historically that festival might have been held at Mullaghmast in Naas (naas meaning assembly site) by people with my last name.

                    I dont refuse, I just dont engage in fads that might be detrimental to a culture ive a love for. I could bury you up to your kneck in references that youd love. But itd be a colossal waste of my time unless I care about you and want to see you happy. In time maybe and in PM. But tbh I doubt that anyones interested in going on to look up articles on jstor in the library over a post on the internet, no way are they going to spend hours doing their own research on it to find opposing or alternate theories to the ones Im presenting. Whats the point in me taking time out of my life to reproduce all that stuff?.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

                      Uh wut? You did see the words MERCHANTS and BARTERING in there. Is that also another 'interpretation'? Hell I took it from a site about Pre Christian Ireland. Your chief area you kept referring to.

                      Bury me kid. I dare ya'

                      Yeah. I'm calling you out on your shenanigans.
                      Satan is my spirit animal

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

                        Not wanting to write a research paper about your historical facts is fine but when you play the "it's an academic conspiracy!" card I just have to shake my head a little.
                        I love Russian culture. I'm gay. The way Russia treats its gay population has always been horrific and I admit it. If you're going to make a historical argument you don't get to ignore facts that are detrimental to the image of a culture you're fond of.


                        Since the Druids were an organised priesthood, with powers of teaching and of magic implicitly believed in by the folk, possessing the key of the other-world, and dominating the whole field of religion, it is easy to see how much veneration must have been paid them. Connoting this with the influence of the Roman Church in Celtic regions and the power of the Protestant minister in the Highlands and in Wales, some have thought that there is an innate tendency in the Celt to be priest-ridden. If this be true, we can only say, "the people wish to have it so, and the priests--pagan, papist, or protestant--bear rule through their means!"


                        Recognition = compensation. People like to be rewarded for their services. Power was a bargaining chip and an incentive.
                        Last edited by orchestrion; 03 Jul 2012, 23:09.

                        selume proferre

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

                          Originally posted by orchestrion View Post
                          I'm sorry- are you saying that historical fact is invalid because people with reputations in the field can say whatever they want? :\ while i believe that history is often presented with a cultural bias I'm a little bothered by any argument that states "well science/history/etc could all be a lie". The simple fact that pre Christian civilizations did use currency or some compensation for religious services is true, that won't suddenly be disproven, and the historical thing seems to be a big huge tangent anyway.
                          (sorry for all the typos, i'm using my phone to post this.)
                          Im saying theories in Science and Arts subjects are different things completely. I would agree that history is goin off on a tangent too.

                          What I would say is there is nothing wrong with charging for a book or a workshop or a talk at a public event that is being run to make money. There is no one on one relationship there that needs to be respected. Id object when a senior junior relationship or an elder and an initiate relationship is monetised. It should be a privilage for both involved and not turned into a mercinary experience by money changing hands. Lets be honest an elder is going to be someone you rely on for more then spiritual guidance. If I get hit by a bus tomorrow Ill have a man I trust at my bedside guiding me into whatever comes next. If he asked me to pay him to get me from a to b like a taxi driver I wouldnt have that relationship with him. If I get married hell be marrying me (assuming the fictional bride agrees), if I have kids hell bless them and if we have a miscarriage hell bless the baby. Imagine that trust with someone who asked for payment. Get the boat. Theres no way!

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

                            So how is an elder to make a living?
                            Seriously kid.
                            stop weasling. It makes me testy.
                            Satan is my spirit animal

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

                              Originally posted by Medusa View Post
                              So how is an elder to make a living?
                              Seriously kid.
                              stop weasling. It makes me testy.
                              To be fair, Greek priests usually had careers like being a fisherman/sailor that their duties as a priest were separate from. But that's a pretty isolated case and they still got hella status out of the deal which is still compensation.

                              selume proferre

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

                                Originally posted by JamesByrne View Post
                                I dont refuse, I just dont engage in fads that might be detrimental to a culture ive a love for. I could bury you up to your kneck in references that youd love. But itd be a colossal waste of my time unless I care about you and want to see you happy. In time maybe and in PM. But tbh I doubt that anyones interested in going on to look up articles on jstor in the library over a post on the internet, no way are they going to spend hours doing their own research on it to find opposing or alternate theories to the ones Im presenting. Whats the point in me taking time out of my life to reproduce all that stuff?.
                                I'm interested in jstor. I think it's a brilliant resource. And yes, people here are interested in lots of things so please don't underestimate them after just 16 posts. You're taking time out of your life to post here and argue and then refusing to back it up. If you feel that maybe your earlier posts were a bit off key then just say so and nobody here (I'm sure) will think any the less of you.

                                Backing up an argument has nothing to do with caring for others or trying to make them happy. We'll even accept personal gnosis here on the forum as long as you're honest about it.

                                But if you start trying to bury Medusa up to her neck in anything, I would advise you to be very very certain before you go to pick up the shovel....
                                www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                                Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X