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    Personal issues with Wicca.

    This is really not to trash other Wiccans or to say that the religion is somehow "bad" or "wrong" or something. I'm also not sure if this is in the right place.
    But the main reason I joined this forum was because I wanted other perspectives from non-Wiccan pagans. So many of you are so varied in your beliefs and it's really awesome.
    As I've said, I've been Wiccan for about seven years now. I like a lot of its aspects. I like having a God and a Goddess and worshiping these two balanced deities in various forms. I like the Rede for the most part and I like the emphasis on the idea that whatever makes you happy is smiled upon unless it harms someone else. These kind of ideas were ideas that I had before even looking into Wicca.
    What drew me to Wicca was initially how accepting it was. I realized I was gay pretty young- eleven- and the religious people in my life swiftly cut me out. I had gone through a hellish year of Catholic school and found myself asking purposefully antagonizing questions to clergy to get them riled up and scoffing at almost everything they tried to teach me. I realized Catholicism is not for me and I realized that the majority of my beliefs jived very well with Wicca.
    But lately I've been questioning whether this is the exact path I want to be on now. As I said, I like a lot of the main points, and I love the kind of person Wicca has made me. My issues with it are mostly with the fact that so much absolutely false history is cited by some of the biggest names in this religion, and that it seems so much like LARPing to some of the members around my age. I'm sure other paths get that kind of thing, but Wicca is possibly the most "main stream" Pagan path and it's drawn a lot of people who just really do not jive with me in. I'm actually a pretty skeptical person by nature so rolling my eyes is not an activity I find rare in my daily life but when my own religion makes me so exasperated between the very touchy-feely crystal waving patchouli scented aspect of it and the horribly, painfully false history so many authors (ie D.J. Conway, Silver Ravenwolf) throw around, I have to wonder if I'm on the right path anymore.
    I am absolutely positive that I am Pagan but I want to figure out either a path similar to Wicca in how eclectic it is (I don't like the term "eclectic pagan" for myself- I think it's a fine label for other folks but I find it too broad for me) or some way to talk myself out of these doubts and issues that, in retrospect, having typed them out, seem really petty.
    Any input?

    selume proferre

    #2
    Re: Personal issues with Wicca.

    Many Pagans that I have met "started out" in Wicca simply because it is the most well-known path, and eventually move on...some stick with it because they find a group that they mesh well with, or because it really *is* their thing, but a lot of them move on. You are in college right? That is the age where (thinking I was proly Wiccan) I found the local Gardnerian covens and discovered that not only Wiccan, I was not--but I also had no desire to be so. So, I sort of moved on... I think that you are going through what (at least in my observation and experience) is a pretty normal phenomenon! Just hang in there and look around. Eventually, you will find the path that speaks to you (at least for now) and your beliefs will evolve with your experiences!
    Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
    sigpic

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      #3
      Re: Personal issues with Wicca.

      Originally posted by thalassa View Post
      Many Pagans that I have met "started out" in Wicca simply because it is the most well-known path, and eventually move on...some stick with it because they find a group that they mesh well with, or because it really *is* their thing, but a lot of them move on. You are in college right? That is the age where (thinking I was proly Wiccan) I found the local Gardnerian covens and discovered that not only Wiccan, I was not--but I also had no desire to be so. So, I sort of moved on... I think that you are going through what (at least in my observation and experience) is a pretty normal phenomenon! Just hang in there and look around. Eventually, you will find the path that speaks to you (at least for now) and your beliefs will evolve with your experiences!
      So do you think leaving a religion because the people in it bother you is a valid thing to do? Because I think that's what I'm getting at. XD I'm happy doing rituals and whatnot on my own and being all Wiccan in solitude but I'd actually like some sense of community in my religion annnnd that's really hard for me with Wicca (mostly the fact that I'm a big history dork makes me want to cry with all the "~BURNING TIMES~ ARE COMING AGAIN" nonsense).

      selume proferre

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        #4
        Re: Personal issues with Wicca.

        I know what you mean..... I was brought up (many years ago) in a family of witches who did nothing but hex. You can imagine therefore that they werent Wiccan.... and of course they pre-dated Gardner anyway. I think the trouble with all established paths is when the Listen-to-me-Brigade gets started and talks a lot of tosh. This false version of Wicca is NOT the only way, and there are others that are less accepting of some of the more dodgy stuff. That said, if you really aren't comfortable any more, just accept you may have moved on and look around.

        I went one better when I couldn't settle in any given path, struck out alone and found my own path, which I call Seeking the Green. It's basically a form of solitary pagan witchcraft. It suits me and I'm happy there.

        My big problem with Wicca was the 'An it harm none...' bit. I was brought up with 'Wishes and curses are like old hens, they always come home to roost' - i.e. I was taught that if you make a magical mess then you'd better clean it up.... and magical messes can just as easily be caused by 'white' magic as the so-called 'darker' stuff.

        Anyway, best of luck!
        www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


        Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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          #5
          Re: Personal issues with Wicca.

          To be honest, you are always going to run into people that make you want to roll your eyes for one reason or another...that part you might as well get used to! I try to look at it this way...how other people see deity or practice their spirituality or whatever doesn't hurt me, nor does it take away from what I believe. But, I also think that if the experience you are looking for is not the experience you would like to have, there is no harm in looking around... particularly if it is a distraction for you to practice in a ritual with that sort of group. Really though, an Eclectic Wiccan is still a Pagan, and there are plenty of plain-old just-a-Pagan Pagans that have Wiccan-ish beliefs...you can go as far down that spectrum in either direction that you want. Either way you go, for as long as you feel that your beliefs are still Wiccan in nature, you can still participate in the wider Pagan community.
          Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
          sigpic

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            #6
            Re: Personal issues with Wicca.

            That isn't to say that the history geek bit is the actual core issue, it's more the fact that Wicca's constant attempt to validate itself through lies and false facts is really troubling.

            - - - Updated - - -

            Originally posted by thalassa View Post
            To be honest, you are always going to run into people that make you want to roll your eyes for one reason or another...that part you might as well get used to! I try to look at it this way...how other people see deity or practice their spirituality or whatever doesn't hurt me, nor does it take away from what I believe. But, I also think that if the experience you are looking for is not the experience you would like to have, there is no harm in looking around... particularly if it is a distraction for you to practice in a ritual with that sort of group. Really though, an Eclectic Wiccan is still a Pagan, and there are plenty of plain-old just-a-Pagan Pagans that have Wiccan-ish beliefs...you can go as far down that spectrum in either direction that you want. Either way you go, for as long as you feel that your beliefs are still Wiccan in nature, you can still participate in the wider Pagan community.
            That is very helpful! I think what I'll try to do is just... get away from the pagans I currently know irl, honestly. They're actually pretty awful people and also pretty ignorant about facts and very unrealistic and that's not the sort of person I work well with. I think I might try to find some older Wiccans to at least talk to- I think it might really be an age thing. A lot of folks my age don't like to admit it but we really still are kids in a lot of ways. ;P I really don't want to abandon ship because of a certain mindset that isn't even necessarily inherent in the religion itself but it seems really prevalent.

            - - - Updated - - -

            Originally posted by Tylluan Penry View Post
            I know what you mean..... I was brought up (many years ago) in a family of witches who did nothing but hex. You can imagine therefore that they werent Wiccan.... and of course they pre-dated Gardner anyway. I think the trouble with all established paths is when the Listen-to-me-Brigade gets started and talks a lot of tosh. This false version of Wicca is NOT the only way, and there are others that are less accepting of some of the more dodgy stuff. That said, if you really aren't comfortable any more, just accept you may have moved on and look around.

            I went one better when I couldn't settle in any given path, struck out alone and found my own path, which I call Seeking the Green. It's basically a form of solitary pagan witchcraft. It suits me and I'm happy there.

            My big problem with Wicca was the 'An it harm none...' bit. I was brought up with 'Wishes and curses are like old hens, they always come home to roost' - i.e. I was taught that if you make a magical mess then you'd better clean it up.... and magical messes can just as easily be caused by 'white' magic as the so-called 'darker' stuff.

            Anyway, best of luck!
            Ahh- I've seen some less extreme Wiccans argue that the Rede and the whole "An it harm none" bit is more a suggestion or guidance than an actual commandment of sorts, which I rather like the idea of. And that if it's for a greater good- say you do curse someone but they've done something horrible and aren't learning from it in a karmic or intellectual or moral sense- then if you ask the gods and explain your situation it might not come back to bite you. But that's the reason I consider myself an eclectic Wiccan and not a true Gardnerian Wiccan I guess.

            I think what you said about the false version of Wicca not being the only way really clicked for me though. The fact that I don't like the false facts etc etc is actually probably a good indication that I shouldn't totally abandon ship. Wanting the bullcrap free version of something is probably more positive than negative, haha.
            Thanks for your thoughts :]

            selume proferre

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              #7
              Re: Personal issues with Wicca.

              Originally posted by orchestrion View Post
              Ahh- I've seen some less extreme Wiccans argue that the Rede and the whole "An it harm none" bit is more a suggestion or guidance than an actual commandment of sorts, which I rather like the idea of. And that if it's for a greater good- say you do curse someone but they've done something horrible and aren't learning from it in a karmic or intellectual or moral sense- then if you ask the gods and explain your situation it might not come back to bite you. But that's the reason I consider myself an eclectic Wiccan and not a true Gardnerian Wiccan I guess.
              Actually, I find your view of the rede to be much more in-line with the more traditional Wiccan views. The idea that the rede is a commandment, and that we should literally 'harm none' seems to be a newer idea. (Also, an impossible idea.)

              As for leaving a religion because of the people, as was said... you're going to find bad apples, idiots, jerks, and people you just don't like in every established path. I think it's not the best reason to leave a path that otherwise speaks to you, but in the end you have to make that choice for yourself.
              Hearth and Hedge

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                #8
                Re: Personal issues with Wicca.

                Originally posted by Gardenia View Post
                Actually, I find your view of the rede to be much more in-line with the more traditional Wiccan views. The idea that the rede is a commandment, and that we should literally 'harm none' seems to be a newer idea. (Also, an impossible idea.)

                As for leaving a religion because of the people, as was said... you're going to find bad apples, idiots, jerks, and people you just don't like in every established path. I think it's not the best reason to leave a path that otherwise speaks to you, but in the end you have to make that choice for yourself.
                That's what I've heard actually! I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought 'harm none' being mandatory seemed off. :P I guess the more extreme "white light" type Wiccans are just not willing to say it or something, because it's always the less white light-y types I've seen say it.
                And I would agree completely if I hadn't been finding myself increasingly more in need of some kind of religious community in my life. But I think I'm realizing that I might just need to find Pagans and especially Wiccans other than the ones currently in my life rather than just totally ditch Wicca. It does make me happy and I feel it's right, but I have a low tolerance for the kinds of Wiccans I've met face to face. I probably just need a good talk with an older Wiccan or something.
                Last edited by orchestrion; 05 Jul 2012, 15:02.

                selume proferre

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                  #9
                  Re: Personal issues with Wicca.

                  That isn't to say that the history geek bit is the actual core issue, it's more the fact that Wicca's constant attempt to validate itself through lies and false facts is really troubling.]
                  THIS!

                  This is why I chose atheism. I cannot in good conscious follow something when I am fully aware of the deceit. It's like trying to put a square peg into a circle. It feels wrong. And you become very aware of the borders not meshing well. If you are aware of the deceits being told, there is no way your true self will accept this as your real religion.
                  Satan is my spirit animal

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                    #10
                    Re: Personal issues with Wicca.

                    Originally posted by Medusa View Post
                    THIS!

                    This is why I chose atheism. I cannot in good conscious follow something when I am fully aware of the deceit. It's like trying to put a square peg into a circle. It feels wrong. And you become very aware of the borders not meshing well. If you are aware of the deceits being told, there is no way your true self will accept this as your real religion.
                    The thing is that I really believe in all of the ideological aspects- the God and Goddess, wheel of the year, sabbats, etc etc. It's just the history and the bullshit the actual humans involved come up with.
                    But then, I feel like every religion has some level of bullshit history, and it's actually lucky that Wicca's quite young. I can actually trace the honest history of it through the muck that's built up around it. If not for that I would've just given up already.

                    selume proferre

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                      #11
                      Re: Personal issues with Wicca.

                      Originally posted by orchestrion View Post
                      The thing is that I really believe in all of the ideological aspects- the God and Goddess, wheel of the year, sabbats, etc etc. It's just the history and the bullshit the actual humans involved come up with.
                      But then, I feel like every religion has some level of bullshit history, and it's actually lucky that Wicca's quite young. I can actually trace the honest history of it through the muck that's built up around it. If not for that I would've just given up already.
                      Well I felt the same about human interference and interpretation. I tried to remove that and still found it was just bunk I was choosing to believe because it made me feel good. Mind you, I'm a hard atheist. So I think all of it is bunk. Even in the most respectful way. Because it's all human tainted. If you find you have to reconcile and rationalize your religion, you are going down a path you may not like when it comes to the final outcome. I guess if you are able to overlook the lies, good. But think about that sentence a bit and what it implies about making the most important decision of your mortal and immortal soul.

                      *lol I felt all Catholic saying that

                      In the end, if you don't like what's being done and said about the religion. Just find another one. Isn't that what theists all do?
                      Satan is my spirit animal

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                        #12
                        Re: Personal issues with Wicca.

                        Originally posted by Medusa View Post
                        Well I felt the same about human interference and interpretation. I tried to remove that and still found it was just bunk I was choosing to believe because it made me feel good. Mind you, I'm a hard atheist. So I think all of it is bunk. Even in the most respectful way. Because it's all human tainted. If you find you have to reconcile and rationalize your religion, you are going down a path you may not like when it comes to the final outcome. I guess if you are able to overlook the lies, good. But think about that sentence a bit and what it implies about making the most important decision of your mortal and immortal soul.

                        *lol I felt all Catholic saying that

                        In the end, if you don't like what's being done and said about the religion. Just find another one. Isn't that what theists all do?
                        Hmm.
                        I'm definitely not dismissing your view but partly because you do identify as a hard atheist (much as I absolutely respect that) I hesitate to act based on your view of things, if that makes sense? Because of where you're coming from at the fact that you do think it's all bunk. I'm not saying at all that I need absolutely everyone I talk to about this to be a theist and agree with me and I'm not going to lose respect for you or your word or something equally ridiculous. I'm actually really glad you posted in this topic because I was wondering what you would have to say.
                        But. I don't know. I think there's a line you can walk between completely dismissing something and being aware of its faults and flaws and working with them for the bigger picture.
                        If I focus on the spirituality of Wicca which I honestly put quite a bit of stock in and believe has bettered my life in the long run so far and ignore the fluff, white-lighters, ~BURNING TIMES~ conspiracy theorists and Silver Ravenwolf-brand idiocy- which are all sort of byproducts of and secondary to the religion itself and not actually tenets of the religion or anything- it's something that feels right.
                        I guess it's like... for example, I love music. I play multiple instruments. But I was bullied badly in marching band, and my section which I was the leader of never listened to me.
                        But I didn't leave marching band because I loved marching band. I didn't love the idiots and the mean-spirited folks in it but I loved getting up, marching, playing music, performing, the formations, the thrill, the fun- all the stuff that was the main point of marching band to begin with.
                        I don't know, maybe I am just deluding myself, I won't deny it because usually people who are deluding themselves aren't actively aware of it. :P I'm just saying that as tainted by humanity as the central tenets may be, those are the things that matter and if they feel right and aren't the source of all the idiocy and the things I actively disagree with it's really not the religion's fault.
                        If all that makes sense. I don't know how eloquent I'm being today.
                        Basically it's like what Tylluan Penry said- the false Wicca isn't the only way to practice. If we're being particularly optimistic. ;P

                        selume proferre

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                          #13
                          Re: Personal issues with Wicca.

                          Yeah, like I said I'm coming from a very hard line on the other side of belief!

                          But...being unaware of how the Wiccan religions go.....if there is another form of it that doesn't have all that..then good to go. My last piece stands. If you don't like something, change to something you like. Whatever that may be. It seems in Pagansim there isn't so much of the THIS IS THE RIGHT AND ONLY PATH. Seems you can cross over to another taking the same beliefs. Am I right?
                          Satan is my spirit animal

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                            #14
                            Re: Personal issues with Wicca.

                            Originally posted by Medusa View Post
                            Yeah, like I said I'm coming from a very hard line on the other side of belief!

                            But...being unaware of how the Wiccan religions go.....if there is another form of it that doesn't have all that..then good to go. My last piece stands. If you don't like something, change to something you like. Whatever that may be. It seems in Pagansim there isn't so much of the THIS IS THE RIGHT AND ONLY PATH. Seems you can cross over to another taking the same beliefs. Am I right?
                            You're definitely right- there is no hard and fast way with Wicca. And like I said before, I think a lot of it is the kind of Wiccans I'm usually exposed to (holy crap if I see one more "gothik paegan magyck" book or something I will actually break down and start sobbing). I literally barely just started calling myself an Eclectic Wiccan- right around the time I joined this forum was when it happened. So I think that change will probably be a lot more positive once I try to start getting around reasonable, older Wiccans, you know?
                            I think there isn't necessarily "another form" of Wicca that has less ridiculous fake nonsense- it's just that actual Wicca has less nonsense. If that makes sense. (I have been saying 'if that makes sense' a lot today, wow, I've forgotten how to words apparently).

                            selume proferre

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                              #15
                              Re: Personal issues with Wicca.

                              No no that makes sense. I removed myself from anything with the Church of Satan because I don't like where the in house politics was taking the religion. Most LaVayen Satanists are actually not members of the CoS. So I totally get looking for the true core of a religion. older Wiccans would def be the way to go in finding that.
                              Satan is my spirit animal

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