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    Evolution

    This is a question that I posted on PaganSpace awhile ago, and while I got some fascinating answers it certainly wasn't 100% satisfying for me. I'm not so much asking because I don't know what to believe, because I think I know what I personally believe, but I'm curious as to other's beliefs.

    My question is this: With your Pagan beliefs, how do you tie evolution into your practice?

    Before I discovered Paganism, I had no questions about evolution. God didn't exist, evolution was fact. Period. But after several months of exploring Wicca and becoming familiar with the Lord and Lady, I found myself wondering how to make it all fit. I was asking myself questions like: If we as humans evolve, do the Lord and Lady evolve with us? They haven't always had a human form like we generally see them now if we didn't look like this... Did they? It's naive to think that they were always in human form if we weren't even like this... My mind kept coming up with more and more problems with evolution. Only after asking some other Pagans did I reach my final conclusion.

    But before telling you what that is... I would love to know what you all think about it

    #2
    Re: Evolution

    I think the gods are manifestations of a divine spark that we have as conscious human beings. We evolved to this amazing state of being able to have consciousness, a real hard consciousness at that, one that can create symbols, worry about the future, imagine various scenarios, etc. With this evolution, the divine spark of the universe was filtered through our minds into religious imagery. That's how I see it.

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      #3
      Re: Evolution

      Originally posted by frankophonic View Post
      I think the gods are manifestations of a divine spark that we have as conscious human beings. We evolved to this amazing state of being able to have consciousness, a real hard consciousness at that, one that can create symbols, worry about the future, imagine various scenarios, etc. With this evolution, the divine spark of the universe was filtered through our minds into religious imagery. That's how I see it.
      Wow... Of all things I've heard on this particular topic, this actually isn't one of them. That makes a lot of sense to me, although it isn't the reasoning that I came up with on my own. It's quite brilliant, actually, to look at it that way... To believe that these ideas and the channeling of that energy could only be filtered through us after we reached that level of consciousness. However, I tend to believe that my deities exist there whether or not I choose to acknowledge them. I see them certainly as actual beings. If I were to adopt that way of thinking I would have to adapt it slightly... Perhaps they were always looking over us-- Just because we cannot feel them and aren't aware of them doesn't mean they aren't there Just a personal thing of mine.

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        #4
        Re: Evolution

        I think that the forces that we project our own image upon as deities were created with the universe. I don't think the manner in which we perceive the gods has all that much to do with what the gods are, so much as how we understand them to be. Also, evolution of life has little to do, imo, with deities, as I neither believe that we are created in the image of the gods, or that they have any role in evolution.
        Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
        sigpic

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          #5
          Re: Evolution

          Originally posted by thalassa View Post
          I think that the forces that we project our own image upon as deities were created with the universe. I don't think the manner in which we perceive the gods has all that much to do with what the gods are, so much as how we understand them to be. Also, evolution of life has little to do, imo, with deities, as I neither believe that we are created in the image of the gods, or that they have any role in evolution.
          I agree... It has a lot to do with the way that we perceive them. I am also not trying to imply that I believe the deities are responsible for evolution or that the two topics are necessarily related. What I'm asking is how you make those two pieces fit in your own life... Everyone has a different answer and I'm interested in hearing everyone's

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            #6
            Re: Evolution

            Originally posted by Zephyranth View Post
            My question is this: With your Pagan beliefs, how do you tie evolution into your practice?
            Put simply, I do believe in a Creator, who... I guess you could say, set the universe into motion, and to an extent perhaps planned some of the outcomes of this, and guides it somewhat as we go along. Not to the level of everyone has an individual, unchangeable fate, or anything like that... More like, planned all/some of the natural laws, knew how those laws would play out in some bigger cases, but perhaps with more unknown details. More on the big picture scale, you know? To that extent, I also do believe in evolution, and I think it fits in without issue with this particular view of the universe.

            They haven't always had a human form like we generally see them now if we didn't look like this... Did they? It's naive to think that they were always in human form if we weren't even like this... )
            I believe that the human, animal, or whatever else... any personal form of Deity we can think of, that's just humans trying to understand Deity, rather than any 'true face' of Deity. Just ways for us to try and understand at least a piece of something much bigger. Or, perhaps in some cases, it is Deity showing Itself to humans in a way we can relate to. A little of both, I think.

            That said, I could also see how one could believe that Deity guided evolution to create us as we are, in the image of Deity... but, not my personal belief.
            Hearth and Hedge

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              #7
              Re: Evolution

              Originally posted by Gardenia View Post
              I believe that the human, animal, or whatever else... any personal form of Deity we can think of, that's just humans trying to understand Deity, rather than any 'true face' of Deity. Just ways for us to try and understand at least a piece of something much bigger. Or, perhaps in some cases, it is Deity showing Itself to humans in a way we can relate to. A little of both, I think.
              Yes, that makes a lot of sense to me as well. The idea that a deity might show themselves to a specific kind of being in their own form so that they could better comprehend them. But, as you said, I can also see it being that humans simply do not know how to perceive deities in their 'true forms'... Instead, we simply put them in a place where we can wrap our minds around them. Very wise...

              You have all given me a lot to think about. I think I might revise my views a little bit after hearing such good opinions. They all make so much sense to me.

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                #8
                Re: Evolution

                I worship nature as it is, and consider gods more as representations of nature and various aspects of the universe, so there's no conflict at all for me, or with anything scientific. The way I see it, nature and divinity are practically synonymous with each other... almost like everything is part of the same living organism, and evolution is one of the inner workings of that organism. I do think the universe and its workings are extraordinary!

                This all makes me sound perfectly like a strict pantheist. Really, I'm kind of like a polypantheist - but it's a bit hard to explain, and outside the scope of this discussion anyway. I'll have to think for a bit about how to really describe it... but anyway, evolution, I love evolution, lol. I love everything about how nature works!

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                  #9
                  Re: Evolution

                  Originally posted by Gallifrey View Post
                  I worship nature as it is, and consider gods more as representations of nature and various aspects of the universe, so there's no conflict at all for me, or with anything scientific. The way I see it, nature and divinity are practically synonymous with each other... almost like everything is part of the same living organism, and evolution is one of the inner workings of that organism. I do think the universe and its workings are extraordinary!

                  This all makes me sound perfectly like a strict pantheist. Really, I'm kind of like a polypantheist - but it's a bit hard to explain, and outside the scope of this discussion anyway. I'll have to think for a bit about how to really describe it... but anyway, evolution, I love evolution, lol. I love everything about how nature works!
                  This seems like a really good way to look at it I always love seeing people who know what they're talking about!

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                    #10
                    Re: Evolution

                    Originally posted by Zephyranth View Post
                    This seems like a really good way to look at it I always love seeing people who know what they're talking about!
                    Aww, thanks! When are you gonna share your view of it? I'm a little bit curious now that you've built all this suspense :P

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                      #11
                      Re: Evolution

                      I am not a theist. But if I were...I'd believe evolution was the deity's way of creation.
                      Satan is my spirit animal

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                        #12
                        Re: Evolution

                        Originally posted by Gallifrey View Post
                        Aww, thanks! When are you gonna share your view of it? I'm a little bit curious now that you've built all this suspense :P
                        Initially, I sort of believed that whatever deities are there for us have sort of evolved with us... I chose to look at it as they hadn't always been human, just as we never had... I personally believe that deities are not for punishing us or controlling us, but rather they are loving parents and guides. In that sense, though I believe they are much wiser than us, I believe that they go through things with the human race. But now that I'm thinking of it... That's a very naive way to look at it... That's assuming that our deities don't really much care for the animals and plants of the world, which I believe is completely false.
                        You all have fully succeeded in changing my view on the matter I do believe in a Creator... Sort of an 'All'... And I believe that my Lord and Lady stem from that... But for me to envision them as humans even now is foolish, and for me to envision that they find us to be more important than all other forms of life is equally as preposterous. As I result, I have taken what Gardenia said into consideration and I much agree with her! I believe that not only do they choose to show themselves to us on a level that we can understand, but I choose to view them on a level that I can understand... That is the only explanation I have ever heard that fills all of the holes for me.

                        - - - Updated - - -

                        Originally posted by Medusa View Post
                        I am not a theist. But if I were...I'd believe evolution was the deity's way of creation.
                        This is also a very interesting way to look at it, and one that I respect very much. I believe overall that it is probably a little bit of that, too. I believe that deities are likely at least partially responsible for the process of evolution, if not entirely. Bravo, Medusa. You are also getting me to think

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                          #13
                          Re: Evolution

                          Originally posted by Zephyranth View Post
                          My question is this: With your Pagan beliefs, how do you tie evolution into your practice?
                          It doesn't. Religion, spirituality, the divine, etc. all deal with things on a spiritual, immaterial and philosophical level whereas science deals with the material, the objective and so on. The two are separate which is to say, evolution doesn't tie into or effect my beliefs whatsoever. Do I believe in evolution? Sure, there is enough objective data to give it plausibility however in the same vein, it is a theory and it could, technically speaking, be wrong considering we use to believe the world was flat however it seems as though it is right. I also think you have to take into account the nature of Deity in that the Gods transcend all human conceptions of evolution and the like, so no, I don't believe they evolve along side humanity and creation, why? Because they're the Gods, it's about as simple as that, you know? This whole science vs. religion thing is a racket and a false dichotomy.

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                            #14
                            Re: Evolution

                            Originally posted by Ramses II View Post
                            Do I believe in evolution? Sure, there is enough objective data to give it plausibility however in the same vein, it is a theory and it could, technically speaking, be wrong considering we use to believe the world was flat
                            Allow me to first point out that gravity is also a theory... Do you believe in gravity?
                            I personally do not dispute the existence of evolution. I'm not saying you necessarily are, I just don't. There's too much proof and it's fact to me. The trouble I have had is making my beliefs with my deities and my beliefs from the classroom fit together... To me, if it doesn't fit there's a problem.
                            Thank you for your opinion, I greatly appreciate your input!

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                              #15
                              Re: Evolution

                              Originally posted by Zephyranth View Post
                              Allow me to first point out that gravity is also a theory... Do you believe in gravity?
                              This is rather amusing, I do not fall into the "it's just a theory," category, my point was, there have been numerous scientific theories which have since been debunked however with this being said I also went on to say, that there is enough objective data that would lead me to believe it is true. Further, I'm pretty confident that Newton's ideas of universal gravitation is actually a law considering it's called Newton's law of universal gravitation.

                              I personally do not dispute the existence of evolution. I'm not saying you necessarily are, I just don't. There's too much proof and it's fact to me. The trouble I have had is making my beliefs with my deities and my beliefs from the classroom fit together... To me, if it doesn't fit there's a problem.
                              Again, I think the two should remain separate as they address separate issues.

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