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    Is Wicca Bad For Feminism

    This article is an old one but one I found pretty interesting considering the recent topic regarding paganism and feminisim



    As you can see from the title, the article argues that Wicca is bad for feminism. What are people's thoughts on this, and on the article in general?

    I'll post my own thoughts further on in the thread ( mainly because I am typing this on my phone and it's a pain!)
    http://thefeministpagan.blogspot.co.uk/

    #2
    Re: Is Wicca Bad For Feminism

    Le sigh...

    There are so many things wrong with that article, I'm not even sure where to begin. And the comments!!

    It hurts my head.


    Okay...so yeah, lets first address the fact that there are groups out there that promote the idea that women are some exalted extra-connected class of people. Yes, there are people that think this. But, that is neither the totality of Wicca, nor the totality of the New Age movement (which is not the same thing as Wicca).

    I have to agree with the commenters that stated that it seems like she has ho idea what Wicca is. It would make sense that she (from her biased position that she is incapable of admitting being party too) wouldn't agree with ideas of what she believes (though she doesn't name explicitly) "magic" to be. Which brings us to problem #2.

    Sure, there are a large number of people that think that magic is some (set of) supernatural power(s) that they are able to access (which is not a specifically female trait in most Pagan paths)...but there are also people that don't define magic in that way either.

    Problem #3: The assumption that believing you have special abilities somehow delegitimizes (pretty sure I made that word up) one's agency...which I find to be purely opinion based on one's bias.

    Problem #4: The idea that men and women are equal in ability. Men (as a group, on average) and women (as a group, on average) have inherent skill sets due to inherent biological differences and differences in socialization and upbringing. Men (as a group, on average) and women (as a group, on average) are certainly equal in worth, and an individual random man and an individual random woman might be equal in ability, but that isn't the same as saying that women and men are equal in ability.
    Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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      #3
      Re: Is Wicca Bad For Feminism

      Erhh, right then, I think that I'm in pain now.

      Soooo......

      Embracing potent archetypes and symbols is a bad thing because there's theoretically a deficit of important women in fiction that don't either

      1) wield supernatural power

      or

      2) behave as the author expects men to


      can I run and hide now before the stupid actually manages to hurt me?

      Skipping the fallacies that Thal has pointed out, there's actually a decent number of women in fiction these days that don't come with superpowers and don't remind me of men.

      Maybe I just look at gender roles different from the author but I'm thinking she's creating a dragon to slay. Well, that or she wants to attack Wicca because mysticism annoys her but thinks that treating it as anti-feminist is a better angle to work from. Either way, I'm not really seeing anything impressive here.
      Last edited by MaskedOne; 04 Aug 2012, 14:01.
      life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

      Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

      "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

      John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

      "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

      Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


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        #4
        Re: Is Wicca Bad For Feminism

        Originally posted by The article
        ...telling us is that women need to elevate themselves to the status of deities just to compete with the abilities of mortal men.
        That and "preying on the insecurities of women"?

        I have a strong urge to smack that woman, upside the head, with a 'clue by four'. Sara talks out of her ass more than I do, for pete's sake! She definitely needs to do more research.




        "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

        "Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth." - Marcus Aurelius

        "The very ink with which history is written is merely fluid prejudice." - Mark Twain

        "The only gossip I'm interested in is things from the Weekly World News - 'Woman's bra bursts, 11 injured'. That kind of thing." - Johnny Depp


        Comment


          #5
          Re: Is Wicca Bad For Feminism

          If the author implied "some" or "in certain cases" instead of making huge sweeping generalizations (all) would you-all be so quick to disagree?

          (innocent question - just curious)
          Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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            #6
            Re: Is Wicca Bad For Feminism

            Yes.

            She's taking the position that potent archetypes and symbolism are inherently bad for women and the archetypes that she's targeting don't deserve such vitriol.

            She's also taking the position that women are only major powers in popular fiction if they are acting like men or supernaturally enhanced and I can rattle off a number of cases where that's blatant falsehood.

            I'll back off slightly if she cares to provide statistics supporting that a preponderance of women playing major roles in pop fiction are enhanced or acting masculine but I suspect that she and I will have pointed disagreements on some of the characters that she points to and those might take a while to resolve. Hells, I'm not sure she and I would agree on what constitutes a masculine behaviour in enough cases for us to actually debate anything else.

            Effectively my most basic issues are that

            1) She considers mystical archtypes to be inherently harmful

            2) She's drawing a conclusion that a percieved lack of iconic women in fiction that are both mundane and notably feminine promotes the idea that women need to act like men or have superpowers to compete.

            I like mystical archtypes and she has asserted without evidence the lack of iconic unenhanced female characters. For me to take her seriously, she needs at minimum to demonstrate deficit in character types that she's asserting then make a stronger case for the conclusion she's drawing and finally she needs to actually show me how that problem (if it exists) is not better solved by introducing figures more to her liking in the hoping of creating a new archtype. I'm not entirely sure she has a chance in hell of getting me to share her bias against mystical archtypes but if she can't be bothered to lay the groundwork then it's a moot point.

            Will also point out that attacking Wicca for saying "Women haz magic" sort of misses the point that Wicca actually says "Everybody haz magic".
            Last edited by MaskedOne; 04 Aug 2012, 21:07.
            life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

            Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

            "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

            John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

            "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

            Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


            Comment


              #7
              Re: Is Wicca Bad For Feminism

              Originally posted by ChainLightning View Post
              She definitely needs to do more research.
              I agree with pretty much everything that others have said but this was the first, and biggest, thing I noted about the article. Sara clearly has very little knowledge of Wicca and has an axe to grind against 'new age', magic or anything else that she deems as 'silly'. Whilst we cannot argue that Wicca acknowledges the divine feminine, I would strongly argue that it 'targets itself to women followers'. This isn't to say that it may attract more female followers, but I don't believe Wicca targets itself at anyone.

              Personally I don't understand the argument that fighting for equality means we must deny that we are different. Whilst I don't believe in gender stereotyping I don't believe that all people are the same either.
              http://thefeministpagan.blogspot.co.uk/

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Is Wicca Bad For Feminism

                Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                If the author implied "some" or "in certain cases" instead of making huge sweeping generalizations (all) would you-all be so quick to disagree?

                (innocent question - just curious)
                It would depend on the rest of her word choices. As Shadow said about targeting, Wicca can't really target anyone. Some of the Wiccans could. But not the ideology, itself.

                There's also her big tie-in to fantasy, as a 'mangaka', to which she implies a common motif.

                Since she is very short on facts, and very loose on drawing a semblance, I don't think that, even if she were to avoid all-inclusive generalizations, she'd be any better at trying to state her claim. Her claim that is, in fact, nothing more an accusation with no real hard evidence to support it.




                "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

                "Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth." - Marcus Aurelius

                "The very ink with which history is written is merely fluid prejudice." - Mark Twain

                "The only gossip I'm interested in is things from the Weekly World News - 'Woman's bra bursts, 11 injured'. That kind of thing." - Johnny Depp


                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Is Wicca Bad For Feminism

                  Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                  If the author implied "some" or "in certain cases" instead of making huge sweeping generalizations (all) would you-all be so quick to disagree?

                  (innocent question - just curious)
                  I've actually been giving this some thought today as I think it is a fair question. I am pretty sure I would still disagree with her overall argument but I have to admit the sweeping generalizations are part of what bugs me about her argument.

                  It is possible that Sara has only ever had contact with a female-only group of wiccans who only acknowledge the Goddess at the exclusion of the God. This doesn't excuse her poor research however.
                  http://thefeministpagan.blogspot.co.uk/

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Is Wicca Bad For Feminism

                    I"ll check the article and come back with some views later.

                    But if Wicca is bad for feminism then how about Islam?

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Is Wicca Bad For Feminism

                      do feminist pagans celebrate the Horned god?

                      why not just do away with him?

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Is Wicca Bad For Feminism

                        Originally posted by westwoden View Post
                        do feminist pagans celebrate the Horned god?
                        why not just do away with him?
                        You have to keep in mind that 'feminist pagans' covers a ton of ground. Not every pagan worships or "celebrates" a horned god in the first place - feminist or not. Not every pagan tradition or individual puts emphasis on working with a neat little God/Goddess package pair. Some primarily worship and work with only a god (or gods), or only a goddess (or goddesses), again, regardless of whether they may be a feminist or not.

                        Some pagan feminist groups are goddess only worshipers. Other such groups may have a god as well, but put minimal emphasis on him. It depends a lot on if you're looking at a particular tradition or not...
                        Hearth and Hedge

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Is Wicca Bad For Feminism

                          Originally posted by westwoden View Post
                          But if Wicca is bad for feminism then how about Islam?
                          I know this was meant to be sarcasm, however, both ideas are based on a lack of truth. Disinformation and misinformation combining to perpetuate a slanted view of an otherwise unrelated cultural movement.

                          Religion isn't bad for feminism. People are.

                          Originally posted by westwoden View Post
                          do feminist pagans celebrate the Horned god?

                          why not just do away with him?
                          First, ask a feminist pagan who they celebrate. If the answer includes the horned god, they can't do away with him, he's instrumental to their beliefs. Second, as Gardenia so eloquently put it, Deity does not relate to feminism, one way or the other. See my answer, above, regarding the Islam accusation.




                          "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

                          "Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth." - Marcus Aurelius

                          "The very ink with which history is written is merely fluid prejudice." - Mark Twain

                          "The only gossip I'm interested in is things from the Weekly World News - 'Woman's bra bursts, 11 injured'. That kind of thing." - Johnny Depp


                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: Is Wicca Bad For Feminism

                            Originally posted by westwoden View Post
                            I"ll check the article and come back with some views later.

                            But if Wicca is bad for feminism then how about Islam?
                            Good question. I know you don't know my background. But I am a Satanist (atheist) who for a time was studying and reverting to Islam. Through studies and readings of the Qur'an I came to find the true religion (without cultural and country slants) was very female friendly. Allowing women to have their own property. Allowing women to keep their maiden name. Allowing women divorce. Even the misconception that women are somehow segregated from the population is incorrect. Single males are segregated to certain areas. While women and families have a larger area. Just looking at the fact there are many more women in power in Islamic countries (do we even have a female president yet?) other Islamic countries have women as heads of state etc. So Islam is women friendly. Certain countries are not. Cultural and religious laws are often confused for the same thing.
                            Satan is my spirit animal

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                              #15
                              Re: Is Wicca Bad For Feminism

                              Originally posted by westwoden View Post
                              do feminist pagans celebrate the Horned god?

                              why not just do away with him?
                              Well...there are Dianic Wiccans who are often feminists and do celebrate the Goddess while largely ignoring the God. And there are plenty of Wiccans and Pagans that don't celebrate the Horned God (which one?) specifically. But honestly, being a feminist* has nothing to do with who I choose to worship.

                              *feminism--the notion that women are people too, deserving of equal rights and opportunity and protection of the law
                              Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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