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    Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

    After seeing that Paul Ryan will be running for vice president I searched for information on Ayn rand as Ryan seems to have based his political and moral philosophical ideas on her. Below is some insight as to what Ayn Rand proposed.

    MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

    all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
    NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
    don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




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    my new page here,let me know what you think.


    nothing but the shadow of what was

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    http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

    #2
    Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

    This pic pretty much says it all, for me:



    And this article is also quite good:

    Ayn Rand and the Sociopathic Society or ‘How I Learned to Stop Loving My Neighbor and Despise Them Instead.’

    Ayn Rand’s specific worldview was that “The pursuit of his (man’s) own rational self-interest and of his own happiness is the highest moral purpose of his life.”[i] This is in direct opposition to a functional humane society where the whole must be cohesive in order to provide for its weakest and most vulnerable. You’ll notice my inclusion of the word “humane”. You can have a perfectly functional society without a shred of humanity in it. Take, for example, the Industrial Age societies. They literally built the foundations for the world we know and yet they allowed or even encouraged child labor; essentially the slavery of children. Speaking of slavery, they had THAT, too, and no matter what Haley Barbour, Pat Buchanan and the other apologists revisionists would have you think, it was horrible and inhumane.
    Last edited by cesara; 12 Aug 2012, 09:40.
    Allow me to lend a machete to your intellectual thicket. ~ Captain Jack Sparrow

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      #3
      Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

      Okay, that link doesn't really explain Ayn Rand's ideas... It's more an attack on her as a person.

      When Rand, or really any philosopher worth their salt, mentions altruism they are refering to the philosophical position that a person is morally obligated to live in service of others. In other words, altruism is the idea that the only good is good for others, that good for one's self either didn't exist, was dependant on others as well, or was an evil.

      Taxation is fundamentally altruistic, it holds that all people of a country (barring certain exceptions) are REQUIRED to give a portion of their money "for the greater good." You can't opt out, and indeed are labelled a criminal if you do so.

      Not only that, but in our current political climate the poor are especially burdened by taxation. They can't afford offshore accounts, personal accountants, or slush funds. They also feel the dip in their money a whole hell of a lot more than their richer countrymen.

      Even if I was in favour of taxing, the country is doing it ass backwards!

      Objectivist ethics is actualy pretty simple. The greater good is NOT the responcibility of an individual, at least not by his or her self. The only good that matters to an individual is that which facilitates their life and happiness.

      The only evils are force, fraud and coercion.

      That is the reason Objectivism is against taxation, it is the use of force and coercion to facilitate state sanctioned altruism.

      I would be all for tax, so long as you could opt in or out if you wished. Supporting our country and the people therein is good, it would be stupid not to. The important thing is that it would be my CHOICE to do so.

      Rand didn't believe in a dog eat dog world, she was actually rather idealistic. She believed that one persons happiness did NOT have to come at the expense of others. That men and women were generally and genuinely decent.

      Wikipedia.org: Objectivism (Ayn_Rand)

      Useful notes: Objectivism

      Wikipedia: Ayn Rand

      TvTropes: Ayn Rand
      Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

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        #4
        Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

        If you want to be able to opt in/out of taxes, that would be fine if, in response, you would have to opt in/out of any social structures that were built with said taxes, ie: bridges, roads, police/fire response. Don't want to pay taxes? That's fine. But you then don't have access to transport your products off of your property nor the protection from theft and fire. It must work both ways.

        Ayn's world would work just fine if it were actually the case that the poor were just lazy buggers. Truth is, the majority simply lack privleged positions in society and don't have the means that those 'with', have.

        If only the poor really WERE lazy....sigh.
        Last edited by cesara; 12 Aug 2012, 10:17.
        Allow me to lend a machete to your intellectual thicket. ~ Captain Jack Sparrow

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          #5
          Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

          Roads and bridges are open to public use, not just tax payers. Vistors to our country don't have to worry about that. As for the police and fire, I actually agree on principle but not in practice. If It was just an indvidual concern you would be absolutely right, but criminals and fires are a danger to EVERYBODY not just an individual.

          As for the poor, and Ayn Rand's personal view of them: Doesn't matter. The Objectivist view is that a person should be responcible for themselves. However, things like inequality and the economic situation make it difficult or even impossible for some people to facilitate their lives and happiness.

          It's an unfortunate fact of life. However, things like charitable organizations and government sponsored work programs are in everyone's best interest. The poor themselves, as well as society at large.
          Last edited by Denarius; 12 Aug 2012, 10:26.
          Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

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            #6
            Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

            Huh? Taxes pay for infrastructure. How exactly should a society pay for infrastrucutre, then? Are you saying everyone should pay taxes to support infrastructure?

            So, there ARE some instances where 'the greater good' (read: danger to EVERYBODY) is relevant. (fire, police etc.) I agree. Hmm. So, how would it work, then? People can pick and choose what they feel affects EVERYBODY and pay taxes accordingly?

            Again, I would love to be able to opt out of taxes.....and it would be nice to be able to pick and choose what 'greater good' concepts I could opt in/out of.....like, say, being able to opt out of taxes that pay for war.....I like that idea, but as you say, it doesn't pan out very well, in reality.
            Allow me to lend a machete to your intellectual thicket. ~ Captain Jack Sparrow

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              #7
              Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

              Yes, everyone should be paying taxes. Entirely of their own free will and without being forced to do so, however without force not everyone will do so. A quandry. Then again, even WITH force not everyone does so.

              Infrastructure should be paid for by society, through charity, voluntary tax, and things like tolls. If you want to help fund something, you should be able to do so directly. I would be absolutely willing to give a portion of my revenue to public funds, sometimes it wouldn't be much, other times it would be relatively generous. It depends on how much I can afford and how charitable I am feeling.

              The greater good is not wholly irrelevent, just not the main concern or responciblilty of the individual. Our own well being is our greatest responcibility, however not taking into account society and things greater than ourselves is woefully shortsighted and ultimately not in our best interest.
              Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

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                #8
                Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

                As I see things,we are in a Technology revolution,More and more factory's are using robots. Many jobs have gone away forever.
                You can't sell your goods if no one is left working. My thoughts may go like this,since I can't work,I will become a farmer,and as is happening some places the Barter system (trading your skill for food or for other services) these systems though small and generally local,might end up how things are done more and more. So imagine that this "Barter" system becomes the new norm,Money as we now have it would become perhaps less welcome. The system of barter does create what could be considered "Money" a paper that says you have this many barter points. Since it is not "Real" money as defined by the powers that be,it is not taxable. I might envision a future where "Real" money has NO worth,if those that grow food would not accept in trade. Consider the VERY rich,that have LOTS of "Real" money who go to the farmer and want to buy food,and the farmer says,that green paper is not barter points and is worthless to me. Then the farmer says to the rich person "If you could repair my tractor,I would consider that a fair trade and give you food for your efforts" The rich person however has always considered their ability to make money by trading or manipulating stocks and bonds worth more than practical WORK that actually produces something the farmer can use,and perhaps trade for other things. The rich persons skills are worthless in that system,and he starves unless someone takes pity on his condition(then concern for others well being BECOMES VERY important to the rich person) Society really knows that not caring about others is a negative path,that will come back to bite their A** In the beginning many(cave man days) one might kill another to take their food,but we evolved into a society where we learned that it was better to work together as you mentioned "For the greater good" Some say that these moral aspects are derived from religion,but I think they are some peoples nature to care about others. I think it is the part of ourselves that knows that we can not exist alone. Humans are the "Smartest" animals on this planet,but sometimes we have the stupidest ideas that end up putting all of us in jeopardy. All in all I sometimes think it will be a Miracle that we don't end up wiping ourselves from existence. Just my take and my 2 cents,I am to old to concern myself,I have perhaps 10 years left(I am 66) good luck,and remember to carry your towel with you,and the answer is 46
                MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




                sigpic

                my new page here,let me know what you think.


                nothing but the shadow of what was

                witchvox
                http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

                  Ayn Rand's philosophy is based on a glaring inaccuracy - that the average human has the foresight to see how their actions will affect themselves, others, and society in the long run and that they will act on that non-existent foresight. All of her novels are about how people fail to do this, and she said that her novels should act as warnings, but she continued to preach a philosophy based upon logic that she indirectly warned was flawed.
                  "Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children." - Khalil Gibran

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                    #10
                    Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

                    Actually, Objectivism holds that the IDEAL is to understand how our actions affect ourselevs, others, and society in the long run. However, no one has that kind of foresight. Not Objectivists, not Totalitarians, not anybody.

                    The best we can do is what we think is best, and that will have to do. Objectivism just holds that what we think is best for ourselves should be the immediate priority, and if that is also good for others then that's awesome. It's a fortunate bonus.
                    Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

                      Originally posted by Denarius View Post
                      Actually, Objectivism holds that the IDEAL is to understand how our actions affect ourselevs, others, and society in the long run. However, no one has that kind of foresight. Not Objectivists, not Totalitarians, not anybody.

                      The best we can do is what we think is best, and that will have to do. Objectivism just holds that what we think is best for ourselves should be the immediate priority, and if that is also good for others then that's awesome. It's a fortunate bonus.
                      But the "evil" in all of her novels is caused by the following of that policy. Each and every person that is set against her heroes are working from their own motivations. They are all out for themselves, and she warns that that will be the end of everything. How can she be correct is she espouses a philosophy that when followed unconsciously by herself to its end is destruction? And then preach that her philosophy is a good thing?
                      "Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children." - Khalil Gibran

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                        #12
                        Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

                        Simple: What we think is best, is not always best. We have the capacity for error, to be wrong. Objectivism is amoral, niether good nor bad. It's the PEOPLE who follow Objectivism that should be judged.

                        If an Objectivist is an asshole, it's because he's an asshole not because he's an Objectivist. Take Christianity for example, there are people like Fred Phelps and people like Fred Rogers. Who you should aspire to be like is fairly obvious.

                        As I said earlier the only "evil" in Objectivism is force, fraud, and coercion. A person can be said to be "evil" if they use such evils, regardless of motivation.

                        Being "out for yourself" is not evil in and of itself, that's one of the main points of Objectivism. However if someone is out for themselves, at the expense of others then they are an asshole... It's not Objectivism that says that, it's us.

                        Objectisim is rational, humans are emotional. If you feel that someone is a jackass for being selfish, out for one's self at the expense of others, that is an opnion. Not an objective fact.

                        It is not the point of Objectivism to judge people as good or evil, it's up to society to make that call. That's one of the things I really like about Objectivism, it doesn't tell you that you have to be good to others. That's a choice that you make for yourself, if you are good it's because you CHOOSE to be good not because you feel you have to.

                        Objectivism in and of itself is amoral, I however am a human. I have values and morals that are influenced by, but not born of, Objectivism. It is I who should be judged as moral or immoral.
                        Last edited by Denarius; 12 Aug 2012, 13:28.
                        Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

                          Objectivism isn't amoral, because it proposes to assign moral value, but I'm not arguing about that.

                          What I'm arguing is that a philosophy that would only result in self destruction if everyone were to follow it is incorrect, and it shouldn't be followed.
                          "Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children." - Khalil Gibran

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                            #14
                            Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

                            This is the one thing that will cause problems,Many have pressed for political ideals,probably believing that they were right to do the things they did. I need not detail those for what they thought was for the betterment of mankind,but history is full of those who ended committing terrible things to create what they thought would be best for all of us. As with Doctors we should remember their oath;"First,DO NO HARM" With any new idea or direction,we MUST always be sure we "DO NO HARM"

                            My time grows short as I approach my declining years,but it is my fervent wish that my Grand children do not see the day when yet again we humans repeat the mistakes of out past. We are as a species able to create the future as a place where no people suffer because some person does repeat the mistakes and brings down the worst that we humans seem to be so adapt at creating. If there are beings watching us on this little blue ball from the far reaches of space,they may pity us,or perhaps they are thinking "See,I told you,these beings are not worth saving" I really hope they can forgive our mistakes and save us from ourselves.
                            MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                            all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                            NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                            don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




                            sigpic

                            my new page here,let me know what you think.


                            nothing but the shadow of what was

                            witchvox
                            http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

                              Originally posted by Simon Slade View Post
                              Objectivism isn't amoral, because it proposes to assign moral value, but I'm not arguing about that.
                              Only entities, and the actions thereof, can be described as moral or immoral. Ideas, words, objects... these are ALL amoral. Objectivism isn't concerned with morals either way, it covers ethics. There is a difference.

                              Originally posted by Simon Slade View Post
                              What I'm arguing is that a philosophy that would only result in self destruction if everyone were to follow it is incorrect, and it shouldn't be followed.
                              Wait, what? How would everyone being an Objectivist result in self destruction? Aside from the fact that everyone reaching consensus is absurd, Objectivism does not make people behave in a particular way. People are good or bad, as defined by society, because of their fundamental nature and values or more superficially by their actions.

                              Even if everyone was an Objectivist, there would still be order. People would still do "good" works, and society would still function. The only way it would result in chaos, is if everyone was also stupid.

                              Originally posted by anunitu View Post
                              This is the one thing that will cause problems,Many have pressed for political ideals,probably believing that they were right to do the things they did. I need not detail those for what they thought was for the betterment of mankind,but history is full of those who ended committing terrible things to create what they thought would be best for all of us.
                              That is essentually Rand's argument against Altruism. People have and will commit atrocities for the "greater good," and will not lose an ounce of sleep over it.

                              Originally posted by anunitu View Post
                              As with Doctors we should remember their oath;"First,DO NO HARM" With any new idea or direction,we MUST always be sure we "DO NO HARM"
                              Again, Objectivist ethics. All that facilitiates life and happiness is good, except force, fraud, and coercion.
                              Last edited by Denarius; 12 Aug 2012, 15:36.
                              Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

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