Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

[Simon Slade]

Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

Only entities, and the actions thereof, can be described as moral or immoral. Ideas, words, objects... these are ALL amoral. Objectivism isn't concerned with morals either way, it covers ethics. There is a difference.

Strawman. I was dismissing it.

Wait, what? How would everyone being an Objectivist result in self destruction? Aside from the fact that everyone reaching consensus is absurd, Objectivism does not make people behave in a particular way. People are good or bad, as defined by society, because of their fundamental nature and values or more superficially by their actions.

Even if everyone was an Objectivist, there would still be order. People would still do "good" works, and society would still function. The only way it would result in chaos, is if everyone was also stupid.

It's what I was saying, when you brought up your strawman:

But the "evil" in all of her novels is caused by the following of that policy ["what we think is best for ourselves should be the immediate priority']. Each and every person that is set against her heroes are working from their own motivations. They are all out for themselves, and she warns that that will be the end of everything. How can she be correct is she espouses a philosophy that when followed unconsciously by herself to its end is destruction? And then preach that her philosophy is a good thing?

You say "if everyone was also stupid." I say that Ayn Rand assumed in her novels that almost everyone is - to use your word - "stupid". And she follows that to the conclusion that they will ultimately destroy society i.e. the message of Atlas Shrugged. Her proposed solution to this is to remove the power of government. Government that, may I remind you, was founded because people were doing what they thought was best for themselves. Objectivism can not exist as an ideal, because it creates its own opposite when applied beyond a select elitist group.

[Denarius]

Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

You are making claims and not defending them or even justifying them.

An agent is moral or immoral, an action is ethical or unethical. Ideas are neither, objects are neither, words are niether.

The rest of your post is nonsense.

[Simon Slade]

Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

You are making claims and not defending them or even justifying them.

Please, explain to me where I haven't backed up my claims, and I will address it.

An agent is moral or immoral, an action is ethical or unethical. Ideas are neither, objects are neither, words are niether.

Strawman.

The rest of your post is nonsense.

How so? All you've done is disagree. You haven't shown that anything I've said is nonsensical. Also, this is bordering on an ad hominem.

[Denarius]

Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

Please, explain to me where I haven't backed up my claims, and I will address it.

Okay. "Strawman." "Objectivism can not exist as an ideal, because it creates its own opposite when applied beyond a select elitist group." "Only result in self destruction if everyone were to follow it"

As for the ad hominem, I have made no claims about you. Good or ill. I addressed your post, which was nonsensical.

[Simon Slade]

Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

It's a strawman, because it fits the definition of a strawman. Look it up.

"Objectivism can not exist as an ideal, because it creates its own opposite when applied beyond a select elitist group."
"Only result in self destruction if everyone were to follow it"

This is backed up by my earlier comments, but I will expand upon it.
Part of Ayn Rand's philosophical teachings - the parts most focused on - are her allegorical novels: We the Living, Anthem, We the Living, Atlas Shrugged. In these books she outlines societies that have essentially self destructed or are on their way to self destruction. With the exception of We the Living, these are fictional worlds and are meant to serve as warnings of our future.

What I argue is that her "evils" in these novels are caused by the same thoughts and motivations that Objectivism glorifies. Following this argument, I say that Objectivism can not exist as an ideal, because it will defeat itself by creating those who will - through their struggle to do what is best for them - impose upon the freedom of others.

[Denarius]

Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

I said Objectivism was amoral, you said it was noit because it "proposes to assign moral value." Whether it does or not is irrelevent, it cannot be moral or immoral because it is not an agent. It has A moral, like say one of Aesop's Fables... But is not moral in and of itself.

Okay, Atlas Shrugged is about the government being overly altruistic and thus totalitarian. If anything it is warning about those positions, and in the end Objectivism (Through Galt's actions) is what redeems humanity. It's actually really hamhanded, but whether it worked narratively is not the point.

Things like limiting freedom, over policing, dismissing the honest work and accomplishments of men... these are all COMPLETEY antithetic to Objectivism. These are all cases of altruism and utilitarianism gone wrong. The only story based on Objectivism gone wrong I know of would be Bioshock...

Objectivism is not about doing what is best for yourself, though that IS a virtue... Of a rational human being who choses to live. Not only that, but the use of force, fraud, and coercion are the ONLY evils as far as Objectivism is concerned.

Someone who "imposes on the freedom of others." Is absolutely evil from an Objectivist standpoint.

[anunitu]

Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

One thing that always comes to mind for me is the fact that in becoming the "Tech" society that we are now in the process of becoming,we lose something that has in its way protected us. Our connection to the natural world,we are on the bases level animals,and as we expand our "Addiction" on technology we move from human and take on the aspects of machine. We argue over how to control or at times how NOT to control peoples behavior. In fact everyone does know that our actions have ether positive or negative outcomes,but some times we are carried along by expectations,and ignore signs that our path has started to follow a dangerous detour. I have been a big fan of Tech all my life,but it also has its own dark side. there are two outcomes,we are masters of our technology,or we become slaves to the desire not to have to think.

Much of the technology today even causes us to abandon even simple human contact. We text instead of talking face to face,we lose ourselves in an alternate reality in a game or we find ways to avoid reality and dive head first into an electronic dream. I did drugs when I was younger,acid was a favorite,and I know the danger that posed for me,and the reason I now do not drink or use drugs now. I play games but in moderation because they can pull you into a false state of believing that they are more important than reality. we argue the merits of philosophy.but that isn't reality,it is speculation.
Understanding how to make life better is best done by living it to the fullest,as philosophy tends to follow unproven facts based on our speculation.and not our actual life experience. In the scheme of things our race are children tip toeing through the dark places in our minds, with no light or reason,and I would say with no shoes.

[Simon Slade]

Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

Someone who "imposes on the freedom of others." Is absolutely evil from an Objectivist standpoint.

And I'm saying that "evil" is the natural outcome of Objectivism applied past the heroes of Rand's novels.

[Denarius]

Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

Philosphy isn't about facts, it's about ideas. Ways of thinking. It is speculation itself.

As for the tech: Humanity is more connected now than it has EVER been. I can talk with someone a world away in an instant!

I play games in moderation, because too much of ANYTHING is bad for you...

And I'm saying that "evil" is the natural outcome of Objectivism applied past the heroes of Rand's novels.

And you are wrong. If you actually elaborate beyond this baseless assertion, then I will elaborate beyond mine.

[Simon Slade]

Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

And you are wrong. If you actually elaborate beyond this baseless assertion, then I will elaborate beyond mine.

I have elaborated. I have provided basis. And you have explained Objectivism to me and told me that I am wrong, without providing evidence that contradicts me. I guess this exchange is over.

[Denarius]

Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

No, you haven't! You just said it was the case, and then gave reasons that ALL relate to people acting in ways that go against Objectivist ethics or just basic human decency.

People of ANY philosophy, religion, or school of thought can and some certainly DO become or are jackasses.

[Maria de Luna]

Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

...Most of the arguments in the post don't seem to have much to do with Paul Ryan. I think he idolizes Ayn Rand to an extent but he would have to be more foolish than I think the average politician already is to want to mould the country to her particular brand of "philosophy." I don't personally think Ryan or his philosophies (based on Ayn Rand or not, there are arguments both ways, goodness knows he wants to keep making money off of politics.) are any better or worse than Mitt Romney's, who is actually the person who would be president. His proposals are equally vague and strangely resemble existing opposing party proposals (they all are the same go figure...) Nobody is going to get anything done without congress anyway.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

?..I might envision a future where "Real" money has NO worth,if those that grow food would not accept in trade. Consider the VERY rich,that have LOTS of "Real" money who go to the farmer and want to buy food,and the farmer says,that green paper is not barter points and is worthless to me. Then the farmer says to the rich person "If you could repair my tractor,I would consider that a fair trade and give you food for your efforts" The rich person however has always considered their ability to make money by trading or manipulating stocks and bonds worth more than practical WORK that actually produces something the farmer can use,and perhaps trade for other things. The rich persons skills are worthless in that system,and he starves unless someone takes pity on his condition(then concern for others well being BECOMES VERY important to the rich person)...

Anunitu, you are being absurdly idealistic here. In a complex world, it is highly unlikely that any two people who could benefit through mutual trade will actually meet face-to-face to engage in trade. It works out much better if there is a form of "token" which represents a certain amount of work, which is of value to somebody. These become standard issue - money, with an agreed on value, which makes trade in dissimilar items possible.

If your hypothetical farmer really and truly derives no benefit from your hypothetical rich guy, they will never engage in trade because neither has anything to gain. However, they do engage in trade, because EACH benefits from the exchange they agree to make.

Think about it for a moment - if I need my tractor repaired, it is quicker and easier (& therefore cheaper) to take it to a shop, and have the work done for an agreed upon fee than it would be for me to hunt up somebody who would be willing to fix my tractor in exchange for 125 chickens ($2 per chicken = $250 in cash... But only if one is will to do the work which results in 125 dead chickens, mimus the feed they've been eating since spring...).

[westwoden]

Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

If Ayn Rand made a career out of bashing social services then how come she used the State to look after her in the end?

what was her apology here?

because according to her logic she should have let nature take it's course, and died!

a touch of hypocrisy it seems

[AzazelEblis]

Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

If Ayn Rand made a career out of bashing social services then how come she used the State to look after her in the end?

what was her apology here?

because according to her logic she should have let nature take it's course, and died!

a touch of hypocrisy it seems

Such is the case with all Radical Individualists. And what was the central theme of all of her interactions presented?

A selfish desire to take advantage, without giving back.