Cultural Appropriation

[Ophidia]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

I don't know about Canada or Mexico, but the US is RAMPANTLY nationalistic. We treat our flags as devine relics, preach the gospel of the Founding Fathers, force our children to "pledge alegiance," glorify The Dream, and... Well I could go on.

The thing about this is, though - it doesn't matter what your cultural heritage is - if you're a legal American citizen, you're still American. My dad was Prussian, my mother's family was French Canadien. But when their families came here and settled here - they became Americans. The mother-in-law's family came from Hungary, but she was born in the States, so she's American. If you aren't from France, even if you're a legal citizen, or if your parents weren't French & you were born in France, you're still not French. Or German. Or Italian. Acccording to JamesByrne, if you even move away from Ireland (and possibly take vacations or business trips away from Ireland) you aren't Irish anymore.

So yes, we may be nationalistic and even patriotic - but at the heart of things, our basic philosophy is one of inclusiveness. The racism & stupidity just seems louder than what we're actually about.

[JamesByrne]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

Acccording to JamesByrne, if you even move away from Ireland (and possibly take vacations or business trips away from Ireland) you aren't Irish anymore.

Jaze thats unfortunate for me, I married a north american and lived there for years. I could get citizenship if I wanted it... I suppose im not irish by my own reasoning but I am as american as you by your reasoning. Listen if you dont understand or like my culture thats fine but i gave you a number of points, pick one and Ill prove it for you. If you cant be bothered to be inclusive of things you dont understand thats no skin off my nose.

[Dral]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

I used to be like that all the time but Mark Twain said something like Dont argue with stupid people they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. Ignorant people are flamboyant in their displays it marks them out for ostracism nicely. So theres no need to get mad! just take no crap from them so they avoid you and avoid them like the plague when you can. Being that way is a crime and its own punishment.

Id usually dismiss stuff like this as pure semantics and a weak attempt to muddy waters but cesara is right when she needs a definition of another culture. Americans are from all over the place but none of those places recignise americans as related to them within a few generations. As an american its not a subject you can approach lightly. I can tell you saying youre an Irish american in serious trad company is a borderline offense here. The best you could hope for is a look of despair and a quick dismissal. I know a lad who speaks Irish, lives here, married an irish woman and even though hes one of us he is still considered the Yank. No american has a right to assume theyre irish no matter what the reason is. Maybe not all cultures are as insular as Irish people but I would doubt it. we are far more friendly then the french and the germans ime.



Thats a good example of flamboyantly ignorant. I wouldnt say its wrong just stupid and disrespectfull to everyone who values their peoples traditions but at this stage its just par for the course that people are generally willfully ignorant of other cultures and wont listen to anyone when theyre told. Its not an earth shattering crime its just one of the crap things about western culture.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

One other point worth making is that none of us can presume to know what everyone else in our ethnic/ cultural group feels about any particular practice.

We cannot really speak for others, only for ourselves. There are those who shout louder about what is and isn't acceptable, but are they really speaking for the majority? And even if they are, don't the minority also deserve some consideration?

Rhetorical questions, maybe. And I don't claim to have all the answers. But worth considering all the same.

[shadow1982]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

The way I feel about it is that world history being what it is, IE a long sad trail of European people oppressing, enslaving, conquering, killing, etc., people from lands they invaded, and that this is still ongoing in some parts of the world by some predominantly white countries, white people should take a long, long time to think about what it means to people who aren't themscarred the cultural landscape of the world in ways that have not been repaired and may in fact be irreparable.The people of India lived as second class citizens to British invaders for a long time. The indigenous people of the Americas were almost wiped out over two continents by white settlers. Africans and African diaspora have felt the enduring sting of European colonialism, the slave trade, and the aftermath thereof for hundreds of years. And there is a new wave of white oppression going on in the Middle East today. And it hurts people.

Furthermore, and worse, those are all generic terms for many different cultures occupying various geographic areas. "Native American" isn't one culture, but many tribes each with their own culture and beliefs. African isn't one unified culture, but many nations comprising many tribes and clans with their own cultures and beliefs. And so on. And often those are things that are overlooked when a white person decides that they want to take this or that belief, custom, article of clothing, etc: they don't even know who and where it actually comes from, much less what it means.

So, all of that adds up to this: for most of the people of the world, a white person commandeering an important aspect of their culture with zero context, less respect, and without any invitation to do so is hardly a pleasant occurrence, however naive or even well-meaning that white person may be. It's also usually done in a manner that plays on racial stereotypes in the worst way, such as the current fad of hipster girls wearing "Native American" headdresses and "war paint" on their cheeks.

However, participating in a cultural or religious event from a culture not your own, but to which you were invited; receiving spiritual instruction from a native person in his or her tradition; educationg oneself about a different religion's creation beliefs; etc; are not examples of negative cultural appropriation, because of invitation in the first example, context and invitation in the second, and respect in the third, and presumably other combinations of those positive qualities in the etc.

There's a right way and a wrong way to express admiration for other people's cultures, and even implement aspects of their culture into your life and belief system, and it all comes down to being respectful and observing cultural boundaries. Also, if someone from the culture gets offended at you for doing or wearing something from their culture, then it's probably best first to apologize and second to stop doing it.

I tried really hard to find a way to trim more of this post but I can't do it. All of ^this is exactly what I wanted to say, and is said so much more eloquently than I could have managed.

[Medusa]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

Is this going to be about damaging one's culture again?
Because I have a poop load of lol cats just a waiting in the wings.

[Simon Slade]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

If you dig, almost every single culture has appropriated something. You could even argue that appropriation is a large part of all cultures. The mixing and misuse happens.

[Denarius]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

America is the land of cultural mis/apropriation. That's pretty much how we've always been. I REALLY don't see the problem.

If this is about religion... Well, if you actually believe in the gods and that the practices actualy work, then it is above and beyond just an aspect of a particular culture. You SHOULD believe that it's an objective reality, and thus shared by everyone.

If this is just about culture, then that's slighty more iffy. As long as the person in question is respectful and well meaning, then I still don't see a problem.

I grew up, and still live, in a reservation. I'm actually a card carrying member of the tribe. I am also a white boy, though that's never been a real big deal because however white I am I'm still family... It's a real small town, and very isolated... so pretty damn much everyone is either directly related or a "friend of the family."

As far as I can tell there is a "native" culture and a "rez" culture, my status in the former is debatable but I am undeniably of the latter. Culture isn't something that can be "apropriated," you either live it or you don't.

You can take some superficial aspects, like clothing... but that's not really substantial. That's imitation at best. Unless you understand the significance behind it, it's essentially a game of pretend. If it's just about some aspect you just happen to fancy, then whatever. That's just some aspect. It's not like anyone can call dibs on anything.

The sentiment this kind of thing usually gets around here is basically this: If you eat our food, it's because you have good taste. If you wear our clothes, it's because you have good style. If you sing our songs, it's because you have a good ear.

However, the problems start arising with the whole us vs them mentality. It's like a club. If you're not on the list, you have to know someone who is. (Or be hot enough to be let in anyway.) Then you are "one of us," at least nominally. But I think that's a slightly different issue.

[cesara]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

2 things there, 1 there are no irish recons and 2 christian identity is a tribal thing here. 1. Recon is primarily an american thing. I only know of two recons in the country and they only moved here 3 years ago. Going by the stuff they say about recons I wouldnt say their use of the term aknowleges a kinship, they only use it to indicate a methodology.

I should never have used the term 'Irish recon' ....but rather 'Celtic Recon'. Completely my fault as to how the responses have shifted from cultural appropriation in a religious setting to the idea of 'legitimate cultural heritage'. My bad. But, I will reply because -- well, I started the discussion.

At any rate, yes, I think you are right in that it is more a NA thing.....we here it a lot, here. I would however, suggest that most recons see the term as acknowledging both a kinship (to each other) and also a methodology.

2. Saying youre catholic or protestant here doesnt necessarily mean you go to church or believe anything, its a tribal identity rather then a religious affiliation. Peoples hackles go up when you mention youre not the same background as them. Unless youre foreign then it doesnt matter.

We see the idea of religious 'tribal identity' here, too, with the exception that we don't tend to see hackles upon finding out that someone else is not of the same religious affiliation. Considering the recent past of Ireland, though, it makes sense....it's unfortunate, but understandable.

Irish people dont do that, that is primarily an american thing. It makes no sense to us, we dont have that idea of pure blood. We are european. I know my families surnames mean Im IRish, Welsh, French, English and the history of the region of ireland that my people are from mean Im norse, roman, belgian and spanish too.

Indeed.

Hmm... the first thing you should do if youre canadian and call yourself Irish is look at your countries history with Irish people. Canada has a horrendous history of boiggotry and racism towards Irish people and youll find it still exists today. The most basic and blatant display is the prejudice towards newfies. Newfie jokes are the same paddy jokes told about us barely recycled, they are considered the hight of racism everywhere except canada.

I won't go on too much about newfies because it's off topic, but I just want to say that newfies consist mostly of English (40%) with Irish second (19%), so I want to be clear that the term 'newfie' is not synonymous with 'irish'. But yes, there are some gawd-awful newfie jokes out there...and they are thrown about here rather casually -- but I will say that they are also taken by the 'newfies' rather casually, as well. Elsewhere it might be seen as 'racist', but here, it is considered 'endeared ribbing'....we love our newfies.

The newfies themselves are abused by oil price fixing and despite having vast natural resources the maritimes are so poor the newfies are flung to the four winds looking for work...

All Canadians are abused by oil price fixing....geez, I'm in BC and we have some of the highest prices in Canada (today, nfld(st. johns): 1.33 litre, bc(vancouver):1.35 litre) and I live within a days drive of the oil fields/sands. Newfoundland is not alone in that one. As for their work, the maritimes boomed for many decades! Unfortunately the fishing practices of our maritimes -- the main industry -- has left our oceans in rough shape and fishing had to be severely monitored so as to attempt preservation. We are most certainly not talking about some intentional bane toward newfies, or other maritimers for that matter.

Now tbh the reason you should care is also because without understanding Irish culture you dont know what youre claiming to be.

I was talking genetics and nothing more. However, there is most certainly an 'Irish Culture' here in Canada (14% of Canadians are of Irish heritage, after all) though it might be very different from the one in Ireland.

Did you know traditional Irish culture is completely anti capitalist? There are no possessive terms in the Irish language. For example Ta gluastain rothar nua agam, I have a new motorbike with me - ag me - agam with me. Our culture is communal and any individual out for themselves is considered amoral, any display that might be percieved as putting yourself above another person because of material wealth is considered one of the lowest acts imaginable. Is that what you believe in?

As an anarchist I'm absolutely inline with this....that's some fantastic stuff....but for me, that fact doesn't make me Irish any more than being an anarcho-capitalist makes me American. But again, this is not really where I was going with my post....I apologize.

The rest of your post discusses diaspora and it's not really relevent to the topic so I'll leave it at that.

[Raphaeline]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

America is the land of cultural mis/apropriation. That's pretty much how we've always been. I REALLY don't see the problem.

If this is about religion... Well, if you actually believe in the gods and that the practices actualy work, then it is above and beyond just an aspect of a particular culture. You SHOULD believe that it's an objective reality, and thus shared by everyone.

If this is just about culture, then that's slighty more iffy. As long as the person in question is respectful and well meaning, then I still don't see a problem.

I grew up, and still live, in a reservation. I'm actually a card carrying member of the tribe. I am also a white boy, though that's never been a real big deal because however white I am I'm still family... It's a real small town, and very isolated... so pretty damn much everyone is either directly related or a "friend of the family."

As far as I can tell there is a "native" culture and a "rez" culture, my status in the former is debatable but I am undeniably of the latter. Culture isn't something that can be "apropriated," you either live it or you don't.

You can take some superficial aspects, like clothing... but that's not really substantial. That's imitation at best. Unless you understand the significance behind it, it's essentially a game of pretend. If it's just about some aspect you just happen to fancy, then whatever. That's just some aspect. It's not like anyone can call dibs on anything.

The sentiment this kind of thing usually gets around here is basically this: If you eat our food, it's because you have good taste. If you wear our clothes, it's because you have good style. If you sing our songs, it's because you have a good ear.

Love this post.

[Shahaku]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

One thing that hasn't been talked about/considered much here. Today we are moving into a worldwide culture. As I post this, people all over the world could be reading it. Technology lets us know and in many ways grow up with people from completely different cultures than our own. In many ways people today, especially the younger generations, are being raised to be a part of this worldwide culture.

The web allows us to research almost anything and make a connection with people and places not our own that was never possible before. Just look at the mishmash of countries this own group comes from.

Also, I know in America at least, schools often have multicultural school days where the students explore aspects of many different cultures, from food to clothing to body art (though they obviously aren't getting tattoos and piercings) and jobs. This means that they can adopt these aspects much sooner.

This doesn't mean that these people are any less a part of the culture they were born into, but it does mean that they have a much easier time picking up aspects of other cultures, and that other cultures can pick up aspects from them. I don't think that this is a bad thing. It is a conduit for learning and acceptance. By experiencing and practicing aspects of other cultures, people are able to see that those other cultures are just as human, not so different after all.

I'm also coming up on a time when I'll being doing some cultural appropriation. I'm getting married in a year and I fully intend to have an "Asian" styled wedding. I am doing some research into their practices and whys and whereofs, but for the most part I'm going with that theme because I think Asian clothing, especially the kimono and cheongsam are extremely beautiful, though I've even considered wearing sari. My fiance wants to avoid a suit and tie, and the Asian style jackets fit perfectly, still formal, but definitely not suit and tie. And I like the black, gold, red color theme. I'm not going with this theme for religious or cultural reasons, neither my fiance nor I are Asian, though I do like many eastern religions, I'm mostly doing it for the beauty of it and because it's our special day, it should be what we want. And I don't see anything wrong with that.

[Jembru]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

One thing that hasn't been talked about/considered much here. Today we are moving into a worldwide culture. As I post this, people all over the world could be reading it. Technology lets us know and in many ways grow up with people from completely different cultures than our own. In many ways people today, especially the younger generations, are being raised to be a part of this worldwide culture.

The web allows us to research almost anything and make a connection with people and places not our own that was never possible before. Just look at the mishmash of countries this own group comes from.

Also, I know in America at least, schools often have multicultural school days where the students explore aspects of many different cultures, from food to clothing to body art (though they obviously aren't getting tattoos and piercings) and jobs. This means that they can adopt these aspects much sooner.

This doesn't mean that these people are any less a part of the culture they were born into, but it does mean that they have a much easier time picking up aspects of other cultures, and that other cultures can pick up aspects from them. I don't think that this is a bad thing. It is a conduit for learning and acceptance. By experiencing and practicing aspects of other cultures, people are able to see that those other cultures are just as human, not so different after all.

I'm also coming up on a time when I'll being doing some cultural appropriation. I'm getting married in a year and I fully intend to have an "Asian" styled wedding. I am doing some research into their practices and whys and whereofs, but for the most part I'm going with that theme because I think Asian clothing, especially the kimono and cheongsam are extremely beautiful, though I've even considered wearing sari. My fiance wants to avoid a suit and tie, and the Asian style jackets fit perfectly, still formal, but definitely not suit and tie. And I like the black, gold, red color theme. I'm not going with this theme for religious or cultural reasons, neither my fiance nor I are Asian, though I do like many eastern religions, I'm mostly doing it for the beauty of it and because it's our special day, it should be what we want. And I don't see anything wrong with that.

This is similar to how I planned to reply to this thread. My phone froze (as usual), so I rage quit and never posted. I never considered it offensive to take aspects of other cultures. I just thought it was normal. I have green tea on cold rice for breakfast, not because I want to be Japanese, but because it is a really tasty way to use up what's left over from dinner the night before. It was the Japanese who taught me this, but it is just a really good tip that I chose to take with me when I moved back home to England. In Germany, my landlord taught me how I should leave my blanket off the bed through the day, ideally with the window open at least for 20 minutes, to let the mattress air. This is not usual in the UK, people usually make their beds with the quilt pulled over the bed, but when I asked around, it's pretty normal to let the bed air in Germany. I sleep on a futon so it is really important that I let my mattress air, so I took this tip home with me. Does this make me wannabe German? I eat rye bread now, even though it is expensive here, because I fell in love with it in Germany. It's good, healthy bread, so why not keep it in my diet? I use chopsticks a lot, again, not because I'm trying to be Japanese, but because I noticed I eat much more slowly with chopsticks, so my tummy has time to feel full before I eat too much. It helps me stay thin, so I still eat with them.

I lived with a girl from the USA for the first 4 months I was in Japan. She told me every brit she's visited or lived with, has just left their dishes on the draining board to dry with soap suds on. It's true, we do this. She explained how in the States, it's usual to rinse dishes. This made sense. Why do I bother to follow detox days, and then eat everything off soapy plates? So I like to rinse my dishes now. Does this mean I think I'm American? Is anyone from the states offended that I have adopted this into my everyday life?

Of course, I'm not so naive that I believe we could all be one big melting pot, but I'd like to think we could one day admire one another for our differences. If we happen to share a few cool hints and tips along the way, where is the harm? I really don't understand the problem, but maybe I missed something.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

The first thing I would say is that cultural appropriation is really nothing new. Look at the Roman Empire. In fact they were so good at it that it's hard to work out what the syncretised, imposed or left alone. I think Jembru's post is really pertinent to this argument, because cultural appropriation, strictly speaking, doesn't just mean religious beliefs. You can culturally appropriate just about anything. (Mind you, I don't leave my dishes to dry on the draining board! )

To give you an example. One of my daughters has had two weddings. One here in Wales - top hat, tails, fairy-tale castle setting - the other in India, with a red sari covered in gold and pearls, a never-ending ceremony and a walk around the sacred fire. This honoured her Welsh background, and also pleased her husband's Indian family. Everyone involved felt it was a great idea. Nobody felt an Indian looked strange in a top hat and tails (he looked wonderful) nor did anyone feel that a pale, red haired Welsh girl looked out of place in a bright red sari (she looked amazing).

Cultural appropriation is not IMHO wrong per se, but some people - it must be said - do it badly and just to look cool.

And some people - it must also be said - have such a chip on their shoulders that they're in real danger of it taking their heads off.

[cesara]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

Some excellent points, and, personally, I completely agree. The world is a much smaller place than it was even 50 years ago due to technology....and I think that's a good thing. Sycretism has been happening for generations....

I want to add that though the many cultures may look different and make it seem that we are worlds apart, we are more alike than we are different.

(a bit of a political twist, but the sentiment is relevent!)

[JamesByrne]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

Man... "Not the Irish language I am you say" MMmmmmmm. Young jedi you must train harder. Or maybe starting your training instead of lying about it would be better...

In a thread about cultural apropriation you might have put a little effort into the lie you have an interest in let alone speak the language and arent just using it to support your recon idiom. Youre a prime example of appropriation and a stand out example of what Ive said about celtic paganism.

The only place that crap could originate is google translate, I got "I'm not Irish you say". You put your american english into translate and got a literal translation that doesnt have basic grammer and mistakes your term "Irish" for the name of the Irish language when you wanted "Irish Person" instead. Its not an easy mistake to make, it takes a mind boggling lack of interest not to know that daoine eireannach is irish person and gaeilge is the name of the irish language... it will actually give people a good laugh at the moot tommorrow though. Its properly amazing.

In answer to your question IMO no since you dont care about the culture enough to google the words, take 1 irish lesson or even to buy a 3 dollar dictionary any of which would tell you the blatant and hilarious mistake that Gaeilge is just the name of the language - no youre not Irish.

You could have just not replied in irish... you didnt have to keep up the lie that way... it actually makes me sad to think that people like you are out there abusing a language that people fought and died and remained in poverty and starvation to preserve. No respect.

- - - Updated - - -

Cultural appropriation is not IMHO wrong per se, but some people - it must be said - do it badly and just to look cool.

And some people - it must also be said - have such a chip on their shoulders that they're in real danger of it taking their heads off.

Uh huh, chuck me the salt and vinegar. If I end up headless here it'll be for good proven reasons.