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    Cultural Appropriation

    First, I'm finally back for the long term - HUGE spiritual overhaul, long story, maybe I'll blag about it later

    Second, I'm usually better at placing these things in the right forum but I'm both really confused and upset about this topic and therefore not stopping to think AND I think the entirety of Tumblr is twelve years old and I'm currently blinded by fury.

    Now...

    Someone talk to me about cultural appropriation. I've been looking for witchy blogs to follow and this is apparently the argument du jour.

    Let's take wearing the bindi as an example. It's been worn a lot lately by folks who aren't aware of it's spiritual meaning. To what degree is that wrong? Is it the same as racism to take a practice and remove it's cultural meaning? Is it considered a bad thing to accept something from another culture or religion and add it to your own beliefs, even if you keep it in it's context and understand it's original purpose?
    Last edited by Raphaeline; 12 Aug 2012, 17:29.

    #2
    Re: Cultural Appropriation

    Well, I guess I would start with the question, what do you mean by 'another culture'?

    [added]
    argh...and btw, that tumblr thread is hard to read with all the misinformation in regards to 'appropriation'. What a load....I can see why you can get upset.....12? That might be a little too generous.
    Last edited by cesara; 12 Aug 2012, 16:59.
    Allow me to lend a machete to your intellectual thicket. ~ Captain Jack Sparrow

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      #3
      Re: Cultural Appropriation

      Originally posted by Raphaeline View Post
      First, I'm finally back for the long term - HUGE spiritual overhaul, long story, maybe I'll blag about it later

      Second, I'm usually better at placing these things in the right forum but I'm both really confused and upset about this topic and therefore not stopping to think AND I think the entirety of Tumblr is twelve years old and I'm currently blinded by fury.
      I used to be like that all the time but Mark Twain said something like Dont argue with stupid people they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. Ignorant people are flamboyant in their displays it marks them out for ostracism nicely. So theres no need to get mad! just take no crap from them so they avoid you and avoid them like the plague when you can. Being that way is a crime and its own punishment.

      Id usually dismiss stuff like this as pure semantics and a weak attempt to muddy waters but cesara is right when she needs a definition of another culture. Americans are from all over the place but none of those places recignise americans as related to them within a few generations. As an american its not a subject you can approach lightly. I can tell you saying youre an Irish american in serious trad company is a borderline offense here. The best you could hope for is a look of despair and a quick dismissal. I know a lad who speaks Irish, lives here, married an irish woman and even though hes one of us he is still considered the Yank. No american has a right to assume theyre irish no matter what the reason is. Maybe not all cultures are as insular as Irish people but I would doubt it. we are far more friendly then the french and the germans ime.

      Let's take wearing the bindi as an example. It's been worn a lot lately by folks who aren't aware of it's spiritual meaning. To what degree is that wrong? Is it the same as racism to take a practice and remove it's cultural meaning? Is it considered a bad thing to accept something from another culture or religion and add it to your own beliefs, even if you keep it in it's context and understand it's original purpose?
      Thats a good example of flamboyantly ignorant. I wouldnt say its wrong just stupid and disrespectfull to everyone who values their peoples traditions but at this stage its just par for the course that people are generally willfully ignorant of other cultures and wont listen to anyone when theyre told. Its not an earth shattering crime its just one of the crap things about western culture.

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        #4
        Re: Cultural Appropriation

        So I've written and rewritten this post several times because this is an issue that is pretty high up my list of priorities. And even with that rewriting, I am still probably not going to say exactly what I mean to, because it is such a large but delicate issue.

        The way I feel about it is that world history being what it is, IE a long sad trail of European people oppressing, enslaving, conquering, killing, etc., people from lands they invaded, and that this is still ongoing in some parts of the world by some predominantly white countries, white people should take a long, long time to think about what it means to people who aren't them before doing anything in that direction.

        The fact is that white people in positions of power have done a lot of harm to pretty much everybody else in the world, and however you feel about fairness and other arbitrary notions, this does reflect poorly on all white people. I know I’m repeating from the previous paragraph, but it is a big deal and it bears repeating, even a third time. European imperialism has scarred the cultural landscape of the world in ways that have not been repaired and may in fact be irreparable.The people of India lived as second class citizens to British invaders for a long time. The indigenous people of the Americas were almost wiped out over two continents by white settlers. Africans and African diaspora have felt the enduring sting of European colonialism, the slave trade, and the aftermath thereof for hundreds of years. And there is a new wave of white oppression going on in the Middle East today. And it hurts people.

        Furthermore, and worse, those are all generic terms for many different cultures occupying various geographic areas. "Native American" isn't one culture, but many tribes each with their own culture and beliefs. African isn't one unified culture, but many nations comprising many tribes and clans with their own cultures and beliefs. And so on. And often those are things that are overlooked when a white person decides that they want to take this or that belief, custom, article of clothing, etc: they don't even know who and where it actually comes from, much less what it means.

        So, all of that adds up to this: for most of the people of the world, a white person commandeering an important aspect of their culture with zero context, less respect, and without any invitation to do so is hardly a pleasant occurrence, however naive or even well-meaning that white person may be. It's also usually done in a manner that plays on racial stereotypes in the worst way, such as the current fad of hipster girls wearing "Native American" headdresses and "war paint" on their cheeks.

        However, participating in a cultural or religious event from a culture not your own, but to which you were invited; receiving spiritual instruction from a native person in his or her tradition; educationg oneself about a different religion's creation beliefs; etc; are not examples of negative cultural appropriation, because of invitation in the first example, context and invitation in the second, and respect in the third, and presumably other combinations of those positive qualities in the etc.

        There's a right way and a wrong way to express admiration for other people's cultures, and even implement aspects of their culture into your life and belief system, and it all comes down to being respectful and observing cultural boundaries. Also, if someone from the culture gets offended at you for doing or wearing something from their culture, then it's probably best first to apologize and second to stop doing it.

        The people on tumblr are poorly informed on both sides of the debate, as people in tumblr arguments usually are. But issues revolving around cultural appropriation are important and should be addressed.

        ETA: Also, I am aware of the irony in calling all europeans "white people". Because Irish aren't British aren't French aren't German, etc. However, in my experience, cultural appropriation in the context provided in the OP is a primarily American thing. And Americans are in general a blend of all kinds of white people.
        Last edited by earthgirl; 12 Aug 2012, 18:27.

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          #5
          Re: Cultural Appropriation

          The only context I really have for cultural (mis)appropriation is within the realms of shamanism or shamanistic practices.

          Every single ancient culture seems to have had some means of attaining an altered state of consciousness. Most cultures have some form of ancestor worship, communing with land spirits, psychopomping, etc. There are many trials of stamina, extreme asceticism, body modification, etc. to go along with the ASCs & actual spiritual work.

          But if you're a typical white middle-class 'westerner', any time you try to engage in a conversation about using any means whatsoever to achieve an ASC or commune with the Otherworldly, bam, you've culturally misappropriated something from someone. Even if you're only using the technologies for yourself, or a small group of friends, and not selling it to roadside tourists, you're still a thief and a colonialist. It's actually more acceptable for me, as a middle-class white American to practice Vodou than it is for me to use drum rhythms in the range of 220 beats per minute to achieve an ASC. In some circles, people actually encourage others to attain and use synthetic LSD for spiritual experiences since LSD is 'mostly American'. Bring morning glories into the mix & oops - you've once again culturally misappropriated something and are somehow glorifying the Conquistadors.

          I've basically just stopped talking about my spiritual experiences if they involve anything that anyone could associate, however remotely, with shamanism. Even if I know I could help someone else out with what I've learned, I keep my UPGs to myself. It's less likely to offend anyone.
          The forum member formerly known as perzephone. Or Perze. I've shed a skin.

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            #6
            Re: Cultural Appropriation

            Originally posted by cesara View Post
            that tumblr thread is hard to read with all the misinformation in regards to 'appropriation'. What a load....I can see why you can get upset.....12? That might be a little too generous.
            Yeah, I removed it because I decided I'd rather make this it's own conversation and not tie it to that mess.

            Originally posted by JamesByrne View Post
            Id usually dismiss stuff like this as pure semantics and a weak attempt to muddy waters but cesara is right when she needs a definition of another culture.
            You know, you two are right... I took some time to think about all this and it occurred to me that it's probably part of why it's such a chaotic discussion ... without clearly defined terms and carefully choosing your words, the whole thing can explode right in your face because it's tied to some touchy topics.

            I just don't know how well I'm getting this. Maybe it's because I grew up in a small, all-white town, and so without diversity, none of this was ever an issue.

            Originally posted by earthgirl View Post
            The way I feel about it is that world history being what it is, IE a long sad trail of European people oppressing, enslaving, conquering, killing, etc., people from lands they invaded, and that this is still ongoing in some parts of the world by some predominantly white countries, white people should take a long, long time to think about what it means to people who aren't themscarred the cultural landscape of the world in ways that have not been repaired and may in fact be irreparable.The people of India lived as second class citizens to British invaders for a long time. The indigenous people of the Americas were almost wiped out over two continents by white settlers. Africans and African diaspora have felt the enduring sting of European colonialism, the slave trade, and the aftermath thereof for hundreds of years. And there is a new wave of white oppression going on in the Middle East today. And it hurts people.

            Furthermore, and worse, those are all generic terms for many different cultures occupying various geographic areas. "Native American" isn't one culture, but many tribes each with their own culture and beliefs. African isn't one unified culture, but many nations comprising many tribes and clans with their own cultures and beliefs. And so on. And often those are things that are overlooked when a white person decides that they want to take this or that belief, custom, article of clothing, etc: they don't even know who and where it actually comes from, much less what it means.

            So, all of that adds up to this: for most of the people of the world, a white person commandeering an important aspect of their culture with zero context, less respect, and without any invitation to do so is hardly a pleasant occurrence, however naive or even well-meaning that white person may be. It's also usually done in a manner that plays on racial stereotypes in the worst way, such as the current fad of hipster girls wearing "Native American" headdresses and "war paint" on their cheeks.

            However, participating in a cultural or religious event from a culture not your own, but to which you were invited; receiving spiritual instruction from a native person in his or her tradition; educationg oneself about a different religion's creation beliefs; etc; are not examples of negative cultural appropriation, because of invitation in the first example, context and invitation in the second, and respect in the third, and presumably other combinations of those positive qualities in the etc.

            There's a right way and a wrong way to express admiration for other people's cultures, and even implement aspects of their culture into your life and belief system, and it all comes down to being respectful and observing cultural boundaries. Also, if someone from the culture gets offended at you for doing or wearing something from their culture, then it's probably best first to apologize and second to stop doing it.

            The people on tumblr are poorly informed on both sides of the debate, as people in tumblr arguments usually are. But issues revolving around cultural appropriation are important and should be addressed.

            ETA: Also, I am aware of the irony in calling all europeans "white people". Because Irish aren't British aren't French aren't German, etc. However, in my experience, cultural appropriation in the context provided in the OP is a primarily American thing. And Americans are in general a blend of all kinds of white people.
            Thank you for this response; I think it's helped me a lot to understand the issues here.

            When I first embraced Paganism, I almost never heard an argument against eclecticism. I'm not really arguing for the rights of hipster girls and their headdresses because that's not me and I don't know those girls. But maybe what has me upset is that what I do involves practices and beliefs from multiple religions and traditions. I have the utmost respect for them, considering I've internalized them and embrace them, and maybe I'm just offended because I feel like someone is demanding I show my pedigree papers before I'm allowed to continue.

            I have to give it some more thought, maybe read some more about this issue. My eyes barely want to stay open, I'll just sleep on it.

            But one last thing - maybe Americans have this problem because we're mutts. Maybe we don't understand because we're a little bit of everyone.

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              #7
              Re: Cultural Appropriation

              Personally I think this whole argument about whether or not we can/should/ought to copy stuff from other religions is such a mess I'm surprised anyone bothers with it any more, but here goes.

              1. Nobody really knows where we come from. To prove this, start off with two parents, four grandparents, eight grandparents and so on, doubling the numbers say, every thirty years, for each generation. When you get back to about 1066 (a bit of a big date in the UK) you have more ancestors than people who were alive at the time here. So probably we are all inter-related, and/or, most of us have ancestors from who knows where.

              2. I have ancestors (going back four hundred years) who lived in Ireland, Scotland, Wales, England and France. Yet when I open my mouth (try my podcasts!) I sound simply Welsh. My blood type however, suggests that somewhere along the line I have ancestors in East Asia. Go figure. So really, when we talk about ancestors, even that is an incredibly loose term. Go back forty thousand years and people were making flutes from Mammoth ivory on the banks of the Danube. There must be plenty of people living in the US who are their descendants.

              3. I think that most things request respect. Lack of respect is a problem in any situation. I once knew a girl who moved to Wales, learned Welsh yet retained her cut glass accent that always made her sound a bit like the Queen when she spoke. There were aspects of that which were hilarious, but fair play, Welsh isn't an easy language but she made the effort. And whatever her accent, her Welsh was perfect. She had great respect for it, and for its culture.

              4. It isn't just about 'white people' versus everyone else. Many Welsh people are very hostile to the English. India and Pakistan have been at loggerheads for years now. In the 19th century France and Germany loathed each other. Politics and belief can become enmeshed before we know it. We mustn't use one thing as an excuse for something else.

              I think my own feeling is that if something is done with respect and sensitivity, if it doesn't involve cruelty or abuse, then it's fine by me. Culture and identity are often man-made concepts. They are fluid and complex, involving a variety of levels. We deal with them as best we can.

              At the end of the day, none of us really knows where we come from (there was a serious theory going around once that I'd made it down from Mars but we'll leave that for now.)
              www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


              Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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                #8
                Re: Cultural Appropriation

                Well when it comes to the clothing part? Who effing cares man? It's all just stuff humans prescribe importance to. Does it actually really mater? Niet.
                It's like people who get fake tattoos and try to fit into the 'tattoo' culture. It's not against the law. knock your socks off. But you look like a fool. And you have every right to look like one. And I have every right to laugh. In the end who cares?
                Satan is my spirit animal

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                  #9
                  Re: Cultural Appropriation

                  Originally posted by Raphaeline View Post
                  When I first embraced Paganism, I almost never heard an argument against eclecticism. I'm not really arguing for the rights of hipster girls and their headdresses because that's not me and I don't know those girls. But maybe what has me upset is that what I do involves practices and beliefs from multiple religions and traditions. I have the utmost respect for them, considering I've internalized them and embrace them, and maybe I'm just offended because I feel like someone is demanding I show my pedigree papers before I'm allowed to continue.

                  I have to give it some more thought, maybe read some more about this issue. My eyes barely want to stay open, I'll just sleep on it.

                  But one last thing - maybe Americans have this problem because we're mutts. Maybe we don't understand because we're a little bit of everyone.
                  I have no problem with eclecticism...when it's done right, that is. And even people who are part of a well established pagan tradition, due simply to the nature of modern neopaganism, are eclectic. (That actually is mostly true for most religions. Judaism, for example, is a mish mosh of different early near eastern legends and practices. Check Gilgamesh for the flood story, and just about every nearby religious mythos for the angels. Nobody is particularly original, at least not 100%.) Gardnerian Wicca is a mix of a bunch of different turn of the century practices, including stuff Aleister Crowley came up with. And Crowley's stuff was a mixture of western and eastern beliefs and practices. However, both Gerald Gardner and Uncle Al did their research with enough diligence and honesty that their borrowings were simply on the basis of "practice x works most effectively to achieve y". And that is generally an okay thing to do. As long as you've done your research, understand the context of the element you're integrating into your schema, and are being respectful when you do it, it's generally not too problematic. Though, of course, there are a few instances where a person native to the borrowed-from culture may object, and that's where the specifics get important. Eclecticism on its own is not a beast that must be slain. It's eclecticism done badly where there's a problem.

                  TL;DR the line is whether you're being educated and respectful about it, or not.

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                    #10
                    Re: Cultural Appropriation

                    In my case, I don't really think I can come up with anything that's something specific to American culture that, if someone from another culture adopted, I would be offended. So I suppose that has an effect on my point of view.

                    I was taught that race and skin color doesn't matter - we're all human and we should treat each other that way. I suppose my attitude with eclecticism is based in that belief, that the reality of the situation is that we're all people just living our lives in different ways. Hindus believe that every religion is seeking God, just in their own unique way. That's similar to the way I'm seeing this issue, I think. I don't see any problem whatsoever with a Pagan who worships Shiva wearing a bindi, but I DO see a problem with teenage girls by the pool wrapping towels around their heads, pretending they're turbans, and mocking whatever culture from the Middle East they think it belongs to. I don't see those as the same things, but last night I read a lot of posts that treated the former as if it were as bad as the latter.

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                      #11
                      Re: Cultural Appropriation

                      In my case, I don't really think I can come up with anything that's something specific to American culture that, if someone from another culture adopted, I would be offended. So I suppose that has an effect on my point of view.

                      I was taught that race and skin color doesn't matter - we're all human and we should treat each other that way. I suppose my attitude with eclecticism is based in that belief, that the reality of the situation is that we're all people just living our lives in different ways. Hindus believe that every religion is seeking God, just in their own unique way. That's similar to the way I'm seeing this issue, I think. I don't see any problem whatsoever with a Pagan who worships Shiva wearing a bindi, but I DO see a problem with teenage girls by the pool wrapping towels around their heads, pretending they're turbans, and mocking whatever culture from the Middle East they think it belongs to. I don't see those as the same things, but last night I read a lot of posts that treated the former as if it were as bad as the latter.

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                        #12
                        Re: Cultural Appropriation

                        I want to qualify my posts at this point, as my experience over the last couple of years has shed much light on this subject, for me.

                        I was adopted. Up until 2 years ago, I had no idea what my biological 'heritage' was. I live in Canada. I am white, brown hair, green eyes, freckles. That's all I knew. What about us adopted folks? How would we fit in if how we delineate our clan came from our genes? Most recons I spoke with would say, 'well, then you just go by the culture you were raised in.' The problem is -- and we are speaking religiously here -- I had rejected the spiritual offering of the culture I was raised in (Christianity). I would also wager that most Irish 'recons' reject the current spiritual culture in Ireland, whether Catholic or Protestant. Generally, they defer back to their genes as a basis for their legitimacy in participating in an alternative spirituality. I could go on and on here, but I'm sure I'll have the chance to elaborate on this later in the thread.

                        Originally posted by JamesByrne View Post
                        Americans are from all over the place but none of those places recignise americans as related to them within a few generations. As an american its not a subject you can approach lightly.
                        I suppose we should discuss if it matters who "recognizes" them, or not. If my ancestry contains Irish, I really could care less if those currently living in Ireland "recognize" my Irishness, or not. Should I care? If so, why?

                        Originally posted by JamesByrne View Post
                        I can tell you saying youre an Irish american in serious trad company is a borderline offense here. The best you could hope for is a look of despair and a quick dismissal. I know a lad who speaks Irish, lives here, married an irish woman and even though hes one of us he is still considered the Yank. No american has a right to assume theyre irish no matter what the reason is. Maybe not all cultures are as insular as Irish people but I would doubt it. we are far more friendly then the french and the germans ime.
                        No offense intended by any means, however, I must point out that this type of thinking is why racism persists in today's society. Sometimes I am amazed at the xenophobia I see coming from people living in Europe. I'm not saying it doesn't exist here in North America, but most of us were born and raised into a culture that taught us that everyone is equal and that racism and nationalism produces extremely negative outcomes. Clearly history validates this idea.

                        +1 to Perz....that is pretty much my stance. What I do in private in none of your business -- I don't care if I wear a toga hunting deer with a bow while making an offering of mead to the Valkyrie. (lack of context intended!)


                        That said, I think that if you are going to express your beliefs publically, then a healthy dose of respect is warranted.

                        I also think it's accurate to separate appropriation by pop culture and the use of spiritual techniques when kept in context and done with respect. Clearly there is a HUGE difference between the two.
                        Last edited by cesara; 13 Aug 2012, 08:02.
                        Allow me to lend a machete to your intellectual thicket. ~ Captain Jack Sparrow

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                          #13
                          Re: Cultural Appropriation

                          Publicly, shrug, my spiritual practices aren't ever obviously displayed in public and if people choose to take offense over the fragments that can be gleaned from what little I permit to be seen then I can point the brainiacs toward convenient bridges to jump off of.

                          Privately, well.....
                          My private spiritual practices are just that. If you know enough to consider being offended then either you're a Power (and thus in position to get me to change them), a trusted friend, or stalking me. Option 3 can whine all they like about what practices I'm stealing. I encourage them to do so in great detail as it'll give a good idea how long they've been up to no good before talking to the police.
                          life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                          Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                          "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                          John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                          "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                          Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


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                            #14
                            Re: Cultural Appropriation

                            Originally posted by cesara View Post
                            I would also wager that most Irish 'recons' reject the current spiritual culture in Ireland, whether Catholic or Protestant.
                            [

                            2 things there, 1 there are no irish recons and 2 christian identity is a tribal thing here. 1. Recon is primarily an american thing. I only know of two recons in the country and they only moved here 3 years ago. Going by the stuff they say about recons I wouldnt say their use of the term aknowleges a kinship, they only use it to indicate a methodology.

                            2. Saying youre catholic or protestant here doesnt necessarily mean you go to church or believe anything, its a tribal identity rather then a religious affiliation. Peoples hackles go up when you mention youre not the same background as them. Unless youre foreign then it doesnt matter.

                            Originally posted by cesara View Post
                            Generally, they defer back to their genes as a basis for their legitimacy in participating in an alternative spirituality. I could go on and on here, but I'm sure I'll have the chance to elaborate on this later in the thread.
                            Irish people dont do that, that is primarily an american thing. It makes no sense to us, we dont have that idea of pure blood. We are european. I know my families surnames mean Im IRish, Welsh, French, English and the history of the region of ireland that my people are from mean Im norse, roman, belgian and spanish too.



                            I suppose we should discuss if it matters who "recognizes" them, or not. If my ancestry contains Irish, I really could care less if those currently living in Ireland "recognize" my Irishness, or not. Should I care? If so, why?

                            No offense intended by any means, however, I must point out that this type of thinking is why racism persists in today's society. Sometimes I am amazed at the xenophobia I see coming from people living in Europe.
                            Last edited by JamesByrne; 13 Aug 2012, 09:39.

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                              #15
                              Re: Cultural Appropriation

                              Originally posted by cesara View Post
                              I'm not saying it doesn't exist here in North America, but most of us were born and raised into a culture that taught us that everyone is equal and that racism and nationalism produces extremely negative outcomes.
                              I don't know about Canada or Mexico, but the US is RAMPANTLY nationalistic. We treat our flags as devine relics, preach the gospel of the Founding Fathers, force our children to "pledge alegiance," glorify The Dream, and... Well I could go on.
                              Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

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