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    Re: The Evolution Thread

    Sorry it took me so long to get back to this, thanks thal! That helped. For some reason, in the back of my mind I knew this. I guess it must have just slipped behind the sofa of my memory bank!

    So when we (neanderthalensis and sapiens) split and diverged from our MRCA, at the very beginning we would have been able to interbreed anyway because we were closer to being the same species - only chance and selection dictates whether or not we continue to diverge, or diverge a bit and then more or less stay parallel. Different enough to not be the same, but similar enough to not be unrelatable. Right?
    I'm not one to ever pray for mercy
    Or to wish on pennies in the fountain or the shrine
    But that day you know I left my money
    And I thought of you only
    All that copper glowing fine

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      Re: The Evolution Thread

      Human evolution is more a muddy delta than a branching tree
      Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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        Re: The Evolution Thread

        I am the apogee of human evolution.

        Check out my blog! The Daily Satanist

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          Re: The Evolution Thread

          Originally posted by Briton View Post
          So when we (neanderthalensis and sapiens) split and diverged from our MRCA, at the very beginning we would have been able to interbreed anyway because we were closer to being the same species - only chance and selection dictates whether or not we continue to diverge, or diverge a bit and then more or less stay parallel. Different enough to not be the same, but similar enough to not be unrelatable. Right?
          Pretty much. And that similar-but-different can last thousands and thousands of years, unless there is a selection pressure that drives a difference that goes too far. With humans, we are so adaptable (because of cultural evolution and transmission), that our genetic changes have been minimal.

          TBH, I'd guess that many splits are like this (duh, if I'd just read further in the article before posting, I'd have seen they say that already)...I think we've just sort of studied ourselves more extensively than any other species by comparison. If you look, for example, at domesticated species that still have extant wild species from which they originated, hybridization is pretty common (in Felis sp. especially). We only really see the difference when we are far enough down the line to see the morphological and behavioral changes between populations. Fossil evidence creates its own sampling bias, which might confuse things a bit more.

          And we humans are very bad at understanding and accepting complex ideas that require more than a 10 word/20 second slogan for an answer.
          Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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            Re: The Evolution Thread

            About 30% of Neanderthal genome is still alive and well in the human population today.
            The Dragon sees infinity and those it touches are forced to feel the reality of it.
            I am his student and his partner. He is my guide and an ominous friend.

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              Re: The Evolution Thread

              Originally posted by DragonsFriend View Post
              About 30% of Neanderthal genome is still alive and well in the human population today.
              The exact amount depends on the study in question, but either way, it only accounts for something like 1.5-2.1 % of human DNA for persons with European or Asian heritage (including persons native to the Americas). As we get better Neanderthal genome sequences and as we sequence more individuals, the amount of Neanderthal genes in modern humans will get more precise.
              Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                Re: The Evolution Thread

                Originally posted by DragonsFriend View Post
                About 30% of Neanderthal genome is still alive and well in the human population today.
                You can find 100% of that during Spring Break.:xD:
                Satan is my spirit animal

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                  Re: The Evolution Thread

                  Originally posted by Medusa View Post
                  You can find 100% of that during Spring Break.:xD:
                  Now THAT is so true!
                  The Dragon sees infinity and those it touches are forced to feel the reality of it.
                  I am his student and his partner. He is my guide and an ominous friend.

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                    Re: The Evolution Thread

                    Originally posted by Medusa View Post
                    You can find 100% of that during Spring Break.:xD:
                    That's unfair, Neanderthals were highly intelligent, with a developed culture and were very creative.

                    Also I was under the impression we had less than 5% Neanderthal DNA. If someone has recent info I'd like to see it.
                    I'm not one to ever pray for mercy
                    Or to wish on pennies in the fountain or the shrine
                    But that day you know I left my money
                    And I thought of you only
                    All that copper glowing fine

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                      Re: The Evolution Thread

                      Originally posted by Briton View Post
                      That's unfair, Neanderthals were highly intelligent, with a developed culture and were very creative.

                      Also I was under the impression we had less than 5% Neanderthal DNA. If someone has recent info I'd like to see it.

                      Individuals that carry Neanderthal DNA have, generally speaking, about 1.5-2% in their genome---I'll have to look for the article another time, I'm headed to be now... But the thing to remember is that it isn't the same part of the Neanderthal genome that got passed down.
                      When they get down to comparing the small pieces of Neanderthal DNA that are present in the genomes of modern humans, they find that about 20% of the Neanderthal genome (exact numbers depend on the study and methodology) can be found in our DNA.

                      Think of it as a sorting game--Half your DNA comes from your mom, and half from your dad. And half your Dad's DNA comes from his mom and dad...BUT that doesn't mean you actually have 1/4 the DNA from your dad's dad or dad's mom. During meiosis (which occurs for the formation of sperm and eggs cells), there is an event called "crossing over", where chromosomes shuffle themselves up. This might be a little bit technical, but this probably explains it better than I can with just words:



                      Shorter version:


                      Essentially though, over time, different parts of your dad's dad (or mom) DNA would end up in your generation unevenly distributed amongst siblings and cousins. If you carry that further even more generations, though stochastic events (random occurances) some of that SNA would be "lost" (death, failure to reproduce, being shuffled out during crossing over, not being "the winner" egg or sperm, etc---this is where genetic diversity within our species truly comes from).
                      Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                        Re: The Evolution Thread

                        Show off...I love your high tech mind Thal
                        MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                        all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                        NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                        don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




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                        my new page here,let me know what you think.


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                          Re: The Evolution Thread

                          A recent article: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/22/sc...vans.html?_r=0
                          Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                            Re: The Evolution Thread

                            I saw this video today and thought it was neat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFxu7NEoKC8

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                              Re: The Evolution Thread

                              I'm reading Drawing Down the Moon and came across this quote from Paul Radin: No progress will ever be achieved, however, until scholars rid themselves, once and for all, of the curious notion that everything possesses an evolutionary history."

                              I was surprised to find such a quote in this book. I guess I assumed that most Pagans were more accepting of the idea of evolution. I, for one, do not see evolution and religion as being mutually exclusive. In fact, it's one of the reasons I was drawn to Paganism in the first place. I believe in science. And I believe in spirituality. And it's extremely important to me that my spiritual path is inclusive of the idea of evolution. I could never be a part of a religion that chooses to ignore hard evidence.

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                                Re: The Evolution Thread

                                Originally posted by Nayru View Post
                                I'm reading Drawing Down the Moon and came across this quote from Paul Radin: No progress will ever be achieved, however, until scholars rid themselves, once and for all, of the curious notion that everything possesses an evolutionary history."

                                I was surprised to find such a quote in this book. I guess I assumed that most Pagans were more accepting of the idea of evolution. I, for one, do not see evolution and religion as being mutually exclusive. In fact, it's one of the reasons I was drawn to Paganism in the first place. I believe in science. And I believe in spirituality. And it's extremely important to me that my spiritual path is inclusive of the idea of evolution. I could never be a part of a religion that chooses to ignore hard evidence.
                                Pagans that don't acknowledge evolution are (sadly, IMO) not as uncommon as one might hope.

                                Otherwise, I agree wholeheartedly. The evidence for evolution at this point is overwhelming and unarguable to actual scientists (and less scientists than many folks think are unable to reconcile their religion and/or spirituality with science...though they end to have less dogmatic and traditional views), though the finer points of mechanisms of evolution are very much still an area of study.
                                Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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