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    #46
    Re: The Evolution Thread

    [quote author=thalassa link=topic=635.msg19346#msg19346 date=1291326057]
    Really, thats an entirely different discussion ...one that *can't* be answered by science...

    Although, if the condition is manageable...why would it matter if it occurs in an increased prevalence?
    [/quote]

    That's why I labeled it a moral question - there is no technically correct answer, not in the way a scientific question can be answered.

    Why would it matter? Well, reasonably good health well into the thirties is much less desirable for our children/decedents than is good health into the sixties. I don't know if that would matter to a lot of people, but it might matter to some people.
    Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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      #47
      Re: The Evolution Thread

      [quote author=B. de Corbin link=topic=635.msg19356#msg19356 date=1291328684]
      Why would it matter? Well, reasonably good health well into the thirties is much less desirable for our children/decedents than is good health into the sixties. I don't know if that would matter to a lot of people, but it might matter to some people.
      [/quote]

      The problem with this is that it assumes there is some sort of guarantee about life. That same person could die in a car crash at 29. Or live to be perfectly healthy without the "normal complications" of increased age for that population until they are 100. Or there could be a new treatment or cure next month. Or their kids could lack the genetics to pass on the disease.

      The same stochasticity that influences evolution and ecology, etc also influence individual survival--no matter how much we humans like to *try* to control destiny, we are just as much victims of statistical un/likeliness as the next species or population or community.

      To claim that there is some sort of moral decision to be made on whom we has the "right" to roll the dice of life, is incredibly dangerous...and to some degree, incredible hubris on our part. I would think that is a decision best left in the hands of the people that would be taking that chance.
      Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
      sigpic

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        #48
        Re: The Evolution Thread

        [quote author=thalassa link=topic=635.msg19358#msg19358 date=1291329503]
        To claim that there is some sort of moral decision to be made on whom we has the "right" to roll the dice of life, is incredibly dangerous...and to some degree, incredible hubris on our part. I would think that is a decision best left in the hands of the people that would be taking that chance.
        [/quote]

        Yes. Who would that be, in the situation I described?
        Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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          #49
          Re: The Evolution Thread

          [quote author=B. de Corbin link=topic=635.msg19381#msg19381 date=1291340081]
          Yes. Who would that be, in the situation I described?
          [/quote]

          The parent, or potential parents of those individuals.

          ...all of which is largely off topic
          Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
          sigpic

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            #50
            Re: The Evolution Thread

            [quote author=thalassa link=topic=635.msg19435#msg19435 date=1291345926]
            The parent, or potential parents of those individuals.

            ...all of which is largely off topic
            [/quote]

            Only until it comes back on track.

            What this indicates is that it is possible to consciously control at least parts of evolution. Whether a parent decides to have, or not to have a child with a particular genetic configuration, or whether such a child decides to have children of his/her own, the individual is making a choice of what genes will/will not be passed down.

            Formerly, because we humans didn't know enough about genetics we had no control over our own evolution. It just happened, according to whatever natural laws were operating. However, now we do know enough... or soon will know enough that we can determine what our ancestors will be like.

            If some parts of evolution can be controlled, other parts will follow. I predict that eugenics will com back, in a much more effective form. I don't know if that will be a good thing, or a bad thing...

            Did you ever read Star Maker by Olaf Stapledon?
            Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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              #51
              Re: The Evolution Thread

              [quote author=thalassa link=topic=635.msg19435#msg19435 date=1291345926]
              The parent, or potential parents of those individuals.

              ...all of which is largely off topic
              [/quote]

              I might add, the actual children, offspring to your list of people who, although they don't "take" the risk, they do live it.

              It is a moral issue (and off-topic : ) but it seems that this has to come into the equation. I will use myself as an example. I carry a trait called thalessemia minor. It is a mild anemia in the heterozygous condition but it is a fatal condition in the homozygous condition (treatment by blood transfusion can keep a child alive for a few years but never into adulthood--last time i checked anyway). A lot of ppl are carriers without even knowing it.

              However, I know I am a carrier. I can take a risk and have a child with someone who doesn't know they are a carrier. That is my right. No law says my partner has to be checked. There is not even very much social awareness of the issue. The risk is, my child may inherit the severe form of the disease and live a short and possibly painful life. I get to make the choice, but it is the child who is at risk. Society and the law does not make me care. I have to care on my own.

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                #52
                Re: The Evolution Thread

                [quote author=B. de Corbin link=topic=635.msg19498#msg19498 date=1291372616]
                Formerly, because we humans didn't know enough about genetics we had no control over our own evolution. It just happened, according to whatever natural laws were operating. However, now we do know enough... or soon will know enough that we can determine what our ancestors will be like.
                [/quote]

                i question whether we really know enough. Traits often have beneficial factors we don't necessarily understand.

                Take ADHD, for example. This was a very very popular diagnosis in Nineties. Still is. Upwards of 20-25% of boys in some schools get the diagnosis.

                Lets just pretend someone finds a single gene that is a significant contributer to this "condition." Would that be a good thing, evolutionarily speaking (not morally), for the human race to eradicate that trait? (that's hypothetical and rhetorical, not a troll line ) The point being we don't know what we don't know, so maybe we should be cautious about taking human evolution into our own hands.

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                  #53
                  Re: The Evolution Thread

                  Perfect example, sickle cell anemia...

                  In a double dose, it sucks...but in the heterozygous form, its beneficial in malarial environments---which is highly contributory to its persistance in certain populations.

                  Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                  sigpic

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                    #54
                    Re: The Evolution Thread

                    [quote author=thalassa link=topic=635.msg19549#msg19549 date=1291391354]
                    Perfect example, sickle cell anemia...

                    In a double dose, it sucks...but in the heterozygous form, its beneficial in malarial environments---which is highly contributory to its persistance in certain populations.


                    [/quote]desire on the part of at least some people to choose what they believe are desirable genetic characteristics for their offspring. As technology making this possible becomes increasing advanced and more widely available, and more widely accepted, people will be more tempted to use these technologies.

                    While science is, technically, morally neutral - in the sense that the choice of how to use what science discovers belongs to the people, not to science - scientists are going to need to be certain that they make information about the possible risks and benefits of new technology clear, and available to the people - in the hopes that at least a reasonable percentage will make informed choices.
                    Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

                    Comment


                      #55
                      Re: The Evolution Thread

                      [quote author=B. de Corbin link=topic=635.msg19670#msg19670 date=1291421876]
                      Sickle cell anemia was what actually made me start to think seriously about things like this. The problem with any attempt to "fix" the gene pool is always going to be the lack of knowledge about future conditions - no matter how well humans come to understand conditions as they are (an it's questionable that even these can be understood clearly enough), they won't be able to accurately predict chance events occurring in the future. The very nature of "chance events" precludes predictability.. . .
                      [/quote]

                      A varied gene pool is a healthy gene pool. The more variation in a population the greater chance that population will adapt to changes.

                      For humans this is actually a bigger problem than just genetic engineering. It is a problem that has been occurring since the domestication of plants and animals. You can look at the domestication process as co-evolution. We all know that kine and sheep and pigs and wheat and maize, etc. all changed through artificial (and inadvertent) selection over time. To some degree humans from long-term agrarian areas have changed somewhat too (e.g., lactose tolerance, alcohol tolerance, etc).

                      The reason why this is concerning is the Red Queen Hypothesis. This is a theory, and fairly well supported, that ecosystems have a tendency to become increasingly interdependent over time--the hare evolves in response to the very specific threat of the fox, and the fox evolves to specialize in catching the hare. However, over time, the more specialized and interdependent the system, as a whole, becomes, the more vulnerable it is to total collapse. As the parts (species) are adapted to specific other species, if one species is taken out, the house of cards comes down.

                      Humans are a perfect example of this kind of interdependent specialization with our handful of domesticated foodsources. I suppose humans are still pretty adaptable with our assumed intelligence and all, but we do fit the bill for total ecological collapse.

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                        #56
                        Re: The Evolution Thread

                        [quote author=gwynwas link=topic=635.msg21393#msg21393 date=1291999310]
                        Humans are a perfect example of this kind of interdependent specialization with our handful of domesticated foodsources. I suppose humans are still pretty adaptable with our assumed intelligence and all, but we do fit the bill for total ecological collapse.
                        [/quote]

                        Yes - and, should the cloning of domesticated animals ever become widespread, we're in even bigger trouble - the clones would be extremely specific & highly specialized (there's not much other point in creating a clone).

                        But, again, if the average person in the population does not understand at least in a basic way how genes, environment, and evolution can interact, the kinds of choices he/she will be asked to make through his/her vote in open elections will be way beyond his or her capacity.

                        Educating people in science is more critical at this point in human history than it has ever been at any time in the past (IMHO).
                        Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                          #57
                          Re: The Evolution Thread

                          Made me laugh my ass off...but true:

                          Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                          sigpic

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                            #58
                            Re: The Evolution Thread

                            LOL - I think something is missing there...
                            Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                              #59
                              Re: The Evolution Thread

                              what is missing ?
                              in your life or in everyone's life ,
                              this a worthy being discussed topics/

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                                #60
                                Re: The Evolution Thread

                                I think it is a fact that evolution is true. It is beyond reasonable doubt.

                                Anyone doubting it or negating it (Creationists) is probably misunderstanding science and evidence or is blinded by faith to that point that he or she can't reason anymore.

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