Defining "Pagan"

[Moody Thursday]

Re: Defining "Pagan"

See I always considered anyone who wasn't of an abrahamic faith to be a pagan, it's just how I was raised to view the term. Heathen was just about the same thing, but my lovely, sweet, never rascist *cough cough*(choking on my lies) grandfather made it seem more interchangeable with the word savage too... I have since changed my personal opinions on the subject...

Yes, I did notice these words also have a negative connotation, such as "a person deemed savage or uncivilized and morally deficient". From Dictionary.com's definition.

[AL!CE]

Re: Defining "Pagan"

I think the easiest way to define Paganism is by what it's not.

It's not Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Mormonism, Scientology, Sikhism...

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I think you can have Pagan Atheists.

Atheism is simply believing that there is no God/s or Goddess/es. You can be an atheist and still revere nature. You can be an atheist and still believe in Magic (you just have to believe that the mechanism for magic exists by a simple quirk of probability the same as the rest of the universe, and not by some God creating it). You can be an atheist and still believe in spirits, ghosts, fairies, elementals and all that (again you just have to believe that they exist purely by chance).

LaVeyan Satanism would be one example of Pagan Atheism.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Defining "Pagan"

You can definitely be an atheist pagan.

I know 'cause I am.

[AzazelEblis]

Re: Defining Paganism

Are we talking about Paganism, as refers to the Neo-Pagan Movement? Or Paganism, as defined by the Vatican? Why would we accept the Vatican's definition of "not Christian", giving it authority? Even building from this definition gives away too much power of defining the faith tradition(s).

Considering that we're talking "Paganism" as a term relating to the Neo-Pagan Religious Movement, I find it inauthentic to allow our definition to include such things as Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucianism, Scientology, [add: Native American Spirituality,] or even Shintoism.

Rather, looking at the paths which are included in the movement, we might want to enumerate that it is a collection of attempted [add: modern-day] revivals of ancient European & Mediterranean Traditions, alongside a [add: religious] continuation of Western Occult Esotericism.

To define our religious movement by the Abrahamic Tradition... just leaves us dependent upon said tradition for our identity as a movement - this would lend credence to several Anthropologists' ideas who view Neopaganism less as a New Religious Movement than simply another Christian Revival.

So, are you still Christian? If not, then quit defining yourself by Christianity. Define your self and your Religion based on it's own content.

I'm still with this one.

And before we get bent out of shape again about "What about Eclectics?!" - that's the piece about the Western Esoteric Tradition, so long as there is something distinctly from this tradition. If a guy worships Hindu gods borrowing Shinto practices with Taoist ideas, but casts a circle like a Wiccan... there's some Pagan in there. I would argue that Thelema is the proto-typical Pagan religion.

So does Wicca fit into "attempted revivals of ancient European religions" or "Modern Western Esoteric Tradition"? You pick, that's its own darn debate. Either way, its in there.

Why exclude everything else? A bit of it is about respect. Quite a few of the Native American movements have their own, independent efforts for recognition of their religious rights. To lump them in to Paganism would disrespect the wishes of their participants.

And to lump the older religions into this movement would similarly disrespect their histories.

[Gobae]

Re: Defining "Pagan"

As I've said before "Pagan" is a worthless term. Imagine asking some one where they're from and getting the reply "Not Antarctica". Truthful? Yes. Helpful? Nope.

"Pagan" says what you're NOT. Not what you ARE. Don't have a have name for what you are? Make one up, it can't be any worse than the non-answer of "pagan".

[DashREM]

Re: Defining "Pagan"

As I've said before "Pagan" is a worthless term. Imagine asking some one where they're from and getting the reply "Not Antarctica". Truthful? Yes. Helpful? Nope.

"Pagan" says what you're NOT. Not what you ARE. Don't have a have name for what you are? Make one up, it can't be any worse than the non-answer of "pagan".

I cannot reply to this. I have tried several times, but each time I end up arguing with myself. Which leads me to believe there is nothing more to add that can make it more powerful, and nothing that could hold up against it. You sir, win this debate.

[ethelwulf]

Re: Defining "Pagan"

I am new the this forum (actually new to forums) and I was not sure how to start but I found this thread to be interesting. This site is called pagan forum, I consider myself pagan and yet the comments in trying to define paganism showed a large diversity of views. The diversity of views show the difficulty in coming to an exact definition. We all see the meaning of pagan from our personal beliefs that we have each developed. Despite this problem the word pagan is no more useless than the word Christian. You would have the same problems if Christians had to define exactly what it means to be Christian in detail. If I remember my history there was a small conflict in Europe about this problem during the reformation period. The word pagan has been rapidly changing since the repeal of the Witches Act of England in 1951. People have taken what once was a derogatory term and changed it into positive movement which has clearly resonated with many people. I would try a different way of defining the term Pagan by looking at what pagan faiths have in common despite some of the apparent differences. I think you can find some very important fundamental similarities which might give better insight into the definition while understanding that no one faith may agree with every similarity in the same way. An example of this would be that paganism is a nature or earth based religion. I know some pagans who feel nature is not an important aspect in their beliefs yet they still have some earth-centered aspect to their faith. I believe that it is reasonable to say that pagan religions are nature/earth based with possibly that some types that feel it is a small aspect to them. Nature/earth based religion is just one of many common features so any comments on any other common features?

[boyo1991]

Re: Defining "Pagan"

It is always very difficult to try and speak of what we believe in as a fact. Because to us after all, it is fact.

The way I would describe paganism is... man that really is tough, but to me, I guess I'd have to say that paganism is too search for answers of afterlife in reality/nature/experiences. This answer is very vague because this can be a touchy subject sometimes.

This thread does bring up a good point however, and I am proof of it. Sometimes it gets to be a gray area due to all of the different traditions. But if one thing were to ring true, it would be the above answer. To me anyways.

[ethelwulf]

Re: Defining "Pagan"

It is always very difficult to try and speak of what we believe in as a fact. Because to us after all, it is fact.

The way I would describe paganism is... man that really is tough, but to me, I guess I'd have to say that paganism is too search for answers of afterlife in reality/nature/experiences. This answer is very vague because this can be a touchy subject sometimes.

This thread does bring up a good point however, and I am proof of it. Sometimes it gets to be a gray area due to all of the different traditions. But if one thing were to ring true, it would be the above answer. To me anyways.

Your answer describes many of us who have become Pagan. I joined this forum to learn more about the Pagan religion. One of the most important aspects of the pagan religion that I have learned so far is its diversity; there is no one correct way to believe. Even though it is hard to define I think it is helpful to describe the characteristics so that non-pagans can begin understand the faith to decide if it is right for them, but it is up to the individual Pagan to define what he or she believes in. There are some common ways that people decide to become Pagan, even if those paths are different. I came to Paganism because of its relationship with nature. I could not accept the Judo-Christian view of nature and realized I am not Christian. Since then I found a connection with Paganism. Other people have come because they found it difficult to believe in one male god and found their connection with the Pagan goddess or gods/goddesses. Others felt there were mysteries to the universe that were ignored by other religions and became Pagan because of the aspect of magick or the belief in spirits. Still others wanted to reconnect with their past with some quite angry that Pagan beliefs and rituals were almost completely eliminated from human knowledge during the Christian conversion of Europe. These people have worked hard with some amazing results to reconstruct much of the beliefs of Celtic, Germanic, Slavic, Greek, Roman and Egyptian Pagans. I suspect most people who have turned to Paganism have a blend of any of the above reasons and they are still Pagan. The nice thing is that there is room for all of these different views and still you have the connection of being Pagan. History also supports this tolerance of different views since Pagans were tolerant of other Pagan's gods and in many cases adopted beliefs from other Pagans in sometimes interesting blends. Interestingly there is evidence showing that Pagans had no problem tolerating Christians when Christians were in the minority, but Christians did not tolerate Pagans when Pagans became the minority (that would be another interesting thread if not already done).

[Jembru]

Re: Defining "Pagan"

I'm currently trying to define it in very, very simple terms, for a post I want to make on lang-8. Here is a rough translation of what I have written so far, it's very generalised I'm afraid...

I want to try to write something a little more complicated to challenge myself. I'm sure this will have a lot of mistakes in it, so please forgive me. I'd like to talk about my religion, because although I am from the English speaking world, I am not a Christian. My religion is called 'paganism' and people who follow paganism are called 'pagans' However, this is hard to translate into Japanese. When I look up 'pagan' in a dictionary, I get 'ikyouto' which I don't think is the correct meaning. In English, Christians will use the word 'pagan' to mean 'anyone following a religion other than Christianity', To a Christian, this is a bad thing, and so 'Pagan' has a negative meaning and is not what those of us who follow the pagan faith, actually mean.

So what is paganism? The meaning of 'pagan' differs between individuals, so it is very hard to define. If I were to try to explain it simply, I think I would say, it is a polytheistic religion as we pagans worship various deities. Nature is very important to Pagans, so we often strive to protect the environment and are conscious of the effect our actions might have on it. Many of us also believe in things like magic and psychic abilities. I too hold such beliefs. In this way, I think you could say it is similar to Shinto.

Although I say 'we believe in magic' we don't mean the kind of magic you see in movies or anime. I don't mean illusions either. It is more subtle and maybe a little superstitious. If I had to explain it in a way that a native Japanese speaker might understand, I would compare it to a child making a teruterubouzu to keep the weather clear, or painting the eye on a daruma and making a wish. We believe that certain actions can encourage particular events, although we also accept that it won't always work.

The gods that pagans worship varies between individuals. They are often from Ancient European religions. For example, I worship the Celtic goddess Brigantia and the god Bregans. I also believe in fairies, which is a Celtic belief. Pagans also often celebrate religious holidays. Many modern pagans celebrate the so-called, 'wheel of the year' which consists of 8 festivals, some of which are coincidentally national holidays in Japan, such as the sping and autumn equinoxes. Others are similar to Christian holy days, such as Easter and Christmas, although they fall on different days.

I want to make a few other more neutral posts before I upload it. I'm not sure how the Japanese are going to react to this, although I think they'll probably find it interesting. I just think it's a bit heavy for a second post.

[Maria de Luna]

Re: Defining "Pagan"

As I've said before "Pagan" is a worthless term. Imagine asking some one where they're from and getting the reply "Not Antarctica". Truthful? Yes. Helpful? Nope.

"Pagan" says what you're NOT. Not what you ARE. Don't have a have name for what you are? Make one up, it can't be any worse than the non-answer of "pagan".

This might be exactly why use the term Pagan... I sort of like non- answers... If someone is asking about my religion anyway, I am not usually keen on answering anyway, so the least informative I can be the better... I don't like generating awkward questions... so I will make it too awkward to make it worth their time....

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Also @ Jembru, I think it is a good post, and not too confusing, though you may generate some interesting questions :P but I bet you sort of enjoy answering them, especially if you get to practice using Japanese while doing it!

[MaskedOne]

Re: Defining "Pagan"

This might be exactly why use the term Pagan... I sort of like non- answers... If someone is asking about my religion anyway, I am not usually keen on answering anyway, so the least informative I can be the better... I don't like generating awkward questions... so I will make it too awkward to make it worth their time....

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Also @ Jembru, I think it is a good post, and not too confusing, though you may generate some interesting questions :P but I bet you sort of enjoy answering them, especially if you get to practice using Japanese while doing it!

Insanity serves well as a "I can't be bothered to tell you. So might the cult of the flying sphaghetti monster (the true and proper faith is the great pizza lord).

[ChainLightning]

Re: Defining "Pagan"

I still like the use of just simply Pagan or Paganism to define the structure, the dogma, or whatever, that my beliefs entail. It's true that it *is* an umbrella term, that says more about what it isn't than what it is. It's also true that the ambiguity of its use is very much akin to simply saying, "other," when answering the religion question - in that it doesn't answer the question. In that sense, it's identical to using the term Christian to ascribe to one of thousands, tens of thousands, of specific Christian traditions. If people want more specific details, they'll ask. Who knows, I might even answer.

Just that, I get the added bonus of pissing off those people that refer to the word Pagan/ism, NOT being a religion but, rather, a meaningless and otherwise useless term. Oh, how I love semantics!

[Claude]

Re: Defining "Pagan"

Saying someone is pagan is just like saying someone is Judeo-Christian. Basically you've put them into a very large very broad box that truly means nothing. Judeo-Christianity contains the three major branches (Judaism Christianity Islam) and their hundreds of denominations and sub categories. In the same way paganism contains a multitude of religious beliefs falling under different names. Heathenism, Hellenism, Wicca etc are just a few. However it's important to note that the exact definition of paganism is any faith not falling under Judeo-Christianity. This means that paganism includes established religions like Hinduism despite most people only associating the word with the Neo Pagan movement. There now I've thrown out a new term that needs defining. Personally I define Neo Paganism as any religion that is not Judeo-Christian and does not have historical roots. This means that I include Wicca, Druidism, etc under the Neo Pagan banner. So by that logic Wicca is both pagan and Neo Pagan but Hellenism is only pagan.

[Malflick]

Re: Defining "Pagan"

Saying someone is pagan is just like saying someone is Judeo-Christian. Basically you've put them into a very large very broad box that truly means nothing. Judeo-Christianity contains the three major branches (Judaism Christianity Islam) and their hundreds of denominations and sub categories. In the same way paganism contains a multitude of religious beliefs falling under different names. Heathenism, Hellenism, Wicca etc are just a few. However it's important to note that the exact definition of paganism is any faith not falling under Judeo-Christianity. This means that paganism includes established religions like Hinduism despite most people only associating the word with the Neo Pagan movement. There now I've thrown out a new term that needs defining. Personally I define Neo Paganism as any religion that is not Judeo-Christian and does not have historical roots. This means that I include Wicca, Druidism, etc under the Neo Pagan banner. So by that logic Wicca is both pagan and Neo Pagan but Hellenism is only pagan.

^yep. Absolutely. Though do you think say, a Hellenistic Pagan who adopts elements of worship from other religion is neo or non?