The long and winding path.

[callmeclemens]

It's been a while since I've posted however, that is because I tend to keep my mouth shut when I am learning.

I started here fully ready to dive into Paganism, ready to turn my back on my Catholic faith, and all that did was create a game of spiritual pong that did nothing but make me feel exhausted.

It was so simple yet so difficult. I love Christ, I love what he did, what he said, and I believe he is the son of the creator. With that being one cannot deny the feelings invoked upon a walk into the forest, or deny the spirits constantly at work, evident more to me sometimes than others. It takes a long time to realize that you can't trap yourself spiritually, that your greatest understanding doesn't really come from books, or religious doctrine, but from great personal understanding.

I post this because just reading threads in these forums has been a great help for me. (Not to mention it exposing me to some of Mrs. Penry's books). I also an interested to hearing other peoples journey to understanding

[Maria de Luna]

Re: The long and winding path.

At least you are at a place you are comfortable with. That bit is important. My journey was difficult and started with alot of questions, like so many others. There were long dark nights, like bottomless wells, where I did not want to believe anything, and where I was going to be so wrong. Ignoring what I felt in my heart didnt work, so I had to stop doing that. A lot of my journey involved connecting to my childhood, and remembering feelings and other things I had forgotten. There were many books, and a large ammount of learning to do, but at some point I managed to work out who I was and what different things meant to me. But I agree, some of the best ways to understand the divine is through yourself, and looking within.

[Aeran]

Re: The long and winding path.

I think we worry too much about labels and categories. If you find inspiration in both nature and the teachings of Jesus, there's no reason you can't just incorporate both of them into your life, it's cool to see you're reaching that same conclusion.

[Malflick]

Re: The long and winding path.

There are all sorts of things in the world that are supposed to be incompatible that actually are. You've been on a journey, and you'll go further places on it, but denying the truth inside yourself won't bring you peace, at least in my experience. I'm glad you've learned what you have, keep looking within yourself, and find that truth.

I'm new here, and not a Pagan, but my own journey of understanding has been one of slowly learning to reject the uniqueness of my own belief. I grew up Catholic, and my evangelical friends constantly tried to convert me, including a girlfriend who was very convinced I was going to hell and made sure to try to tell me how awful my faith was at every turn. I retreated into unquestioning- hiding myself behind a wall of intentional ignorance. But it was empty and unsatisfying, it wasn't a relationship with anything divine, it was a relationship with being able to prop my chin up because 'I knew I was right'.
Slowly though I became disillusioned with the church (why no women priests? Why is homosexuality evil? etc.), and began to expose myself to new lines of thought. It took a long time, of slowly opening myself up to new ideas and taking the time to reflect on things that I was able to start seeing what I truly believed in, and see that what I saw of God was perhaps just the reflection from one shard of a larger mirror. I've grown a huge amount since then, personally and spiritually, but I know I'm not done and there is still plenty more for me to learn.

You seem to be on the right track, even though it may be confusing, because if you have doubts and if you're confused, then you're thinking. Don't be afraid to believe what you feel is right and true-- even if it breaks the molds that things are supposed to fit in. Wherever you end up, whatever you believe, I hope it brings you peace.

[nbdy]

Re: The long and winding path.

"Seek and ye shall find." Trust your instincts, follow your heart, and be suspicious of anyone who would dissuade you from gathering knowledge from any and all places.

[followyourheart]

Re: The long and winding path.

I have recently joined this forum. I haven't had any lifelong , mainstream (ie Christian etc) beliefs but I have had deep rooted beliefs in something that I am trying to understand. I have done some reading about belief systems in the UK pre Christianity and the effect that Christianity had on them. It is a shame that one religion tries to dominate all local ones as there was much knowledge lost through this process. As I have said on a previous post, I respect everyones right to their beliefs and it is not my intention to be too critical of 'mainstream' religions.
I am on a journey myself to explore inner feelings and see where that takes me. Perhaps I had to reach a stage in my life where my mind was freer to take a journey like this. I am not interested in joining a religious group but I would be interested to hear what others have to say. I have some affinity with nature in that I enjoy environmental work, particularly the protection of natural things. Ancients peoples must have tried to live in harmony with the world around them, perhaps they had an instinct that animals still have. I look forward to more discussion

[callmeclemens]

Re: The long and winding path.

One of the things most difficult to me, and I am going to try word this as respectfully as possible. When I say I was raised Catholic I mean it, 13 years if Catholic school, Catholic youth groups, ministries, retreats, you name it I was there. It was never fulfilling in the way I was told it would be, and I always found myself drawn to nature, and things a bit more mystical, but often I was told such things we're simply the temptation of the Devil, or something like that. I remember a specific event at Twelve, when talking in general about Magic at dinner most of my "Secular" item were taken away (music, movies, games etc.). What is called "The Catholic Guilt" was planted deeply in my mind.

As I got older, I slowly realized that I no longer needed the acceptance of others however,when it came to new idea's and expressions of spirituality I meet them with great fear. Seldom do I encounter something new and not think to my self "Is this the Devil?" It has had the ability to pull me completely from my path before.

Alas, I do find my growth to be quite rewarding, and there are still many aspects of that old faith that bring me joy.

So I guess the path winds on.

[Moonlight Mayhem]

Re: The long and winding path.

I felt much of that fear last year when I was really thinking about my spiritual path. I had been on the ropes for years sometimes praying to God, always listening to pagan music. Learning can give me so much guilt its distracting. The guilt doesn't come from religion (I was raised on the Bible but taught that the church was false), but from disappointing my father. But at the core my ideals have always differed from his, even if I wasn't interested in paganism, I would still be an Agnostic. And I do wonder if it's the Devil too. Sometimes I feel like completely separating myself from spirituality because it does make me uncomfortable at times. And yet when I do so I feel empty.

I like that you said one can't trap themselves within a religion. The morals that I held while believing in the Bible are still valid today, if not more so.

[Clive]

Re: The long and winding path.

I was not raised by a religious family. They believed in the God-Jesus paradigm, but that was as far as it went. My family, truthfully, didn't have religion in their hearts. They simply had been raised to believe that if you don't say you love Jesus, you go to hell. I became disenchanted with the whole thing when I was a teenager and skimmed through the Bible. Needless to say, I didn't care for much of what I saw in there. So, I was an atheist for a while and then found the world of Paganism. The rest is history.

Strangely, I recently went through a period where I thought to myself, "What if there is a hell? What if I'm going there?" This was a period where the concept of death became very real to me and I began to panic. However, I consider myself to have been very feeble-minded during this period. It feels much healthier to see "the Devil" as being something I feel is truly wrong, and "wrong" is relative, for the most part. What really is happening is that I'm questioning my reasons for doing what I do, which of course is a good thing. Only when you stop questioning have you spiritually "died."

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: The long and winding path.

I remember once talking about heaven and hell with a couple of doorstep evangelists some time ago. Nowadays they don't tend to bother me - it's probably the horned goats head on the front door and the sheela-na-gig in all her glory in the front garden.... anyway, there they were, going on about heaven and hell and I remember telling them, 'You don't seem to understand. I don't want your heaven, and I don't fear your hell.'
They were completely alien concepts to me, and given that so many people who like to point the moral finger at others follow a path that often will not bear much scrutiny, I have little patience with this any more.

As for the Devil - nothing annoys me more than people doing something dreadful and then claiming that the devil made them do it. No. It's time people took responsibility for their own actions. They chose to do it. They thought they could get away with it, or didn't care at the time. Being caught, they try and blame someone else. Part of spirituality - real spirituality - is learning to 'fess up. That's how we learn and grow....

[darksyderainmaker]

Re: The long and winding path.

First of all, I would just like to state that I have really enjoyed reading this thread.

I joined this forum with some trepidation. After two and a half years of practicing Paganism and loving it, I found myself slowly beginning to separate from it. While I found this happening, I was still finding much meaning in going to public rituals. But then I noticed when I went to Witchcamp last year, the connection was all but gone. I just didn't see it for what it was, until December, when I experienced a sudden and wrenching disconnect from absolutely everything that meant anything to me.

Keep in mind, I was never raised religious, or spiritual, or anything. There was no concept of heaven or hell, only good and bad and that tended to be based on what my parents thought or, rather, my interpretation of what my parents thought, since they communicated mostly passive-aggressively. I turned to spirituality originally as a result of seeking recovery in 12-step programs with the concept of a 'Higher Power' but only had a fleeting idea of what that might be: an energy underlying everything. I prayed because it was a tool of recovery, not because I had a concept of what I was praying to. I tried different titles: 'God...', 'Goddess...', 'Universe...', 'Creator...', but nothing seemed to fit. It took a massive episode of mental illness to bring me to Paganism, and it opened me up in ways I couldn't have imagined.

When I realized I'd lost the connection, I was angry. (Actually, 'angry' is a bit of an understatement...) I felt like I'd been robbed of one of the only truly good things in my life, my source of connection, my connection to Spirit. The feeling of nothingness lasted about three weeks, into the first week of this year, and then for some reason I felt compelled to pick up and read the Bible, and found myself attending a United church (they are far more understanding and accepting of people from all walks of life, including all sexual orientations and faiths). But ultimately I came back to the same conclusion I arrived at a few years ago after attending church for a few months: I am not Christian. I do believe that Christ was here, and I do believe in his work and his presence here on Earth, and that he is the son of God. I just don't believe that God is what the Bible says He is, and I don't believe in the framework of the Bible. And so I found myself once again without anything. That is really how it felt.

I have done a bit of research. I now realize that, at the heart of things, I am agnostic. And I was sad to discover that. Not because I have anything against agnosticism, but because I don't know what that means for me. Because as much as I identify with agnosticism, and as much as I disbelieve many things that many doctrines teach, I also still pray. To what, I don't know. I feel moved when I'm in Nature by things unseen. Yet I think of Paganism and I feel I don't fit there either. I truly feel 'between places' right now.

I put this out there to a group of people that I shared experiences with at camp last year. One of the members responded in a way that was very moving and inspiring:

I am totally supportive of what you are going through. One of the reasons
I was attracted to witchcraft was because I felt it left room for mystery
and the unknown. This is also why I'm attracted to Faerie as a 'mystery'
realm. I am a skeptic and recognize that science proves there are many
unknowns. I also think It's important to just try and live well no matter
what the 'truth' might be. My co-worker is Sikh and we often talk about
times when we're just not feeling it - or indeed, when 'it' doesn't seem
to be there at all. Personally, I belive that the evolution of the 'soul'
involves a lot of grappling with despair, darkness, blah and periods of
'numbness' - or times when you feel there really is nothing beyond what
is. At this point just plain old meditation helps - or knitting - or
whatever! I sometimes feel pressured to 'be spiritual', but what does that
even mean? My friend, who is an astrologer, doesn't like the term
'spiritual', because it kind of implies a hierarchy, or that some people
are spiritual and some aren't - which he thinks is kind of a stupid way of
categorizing/ labelling a quality of the existence of consciousness in
human form - like calling a kid 'special'. I wish you all the best and
that you continue to surround yourself with good people, which so far you
have obviously done!

Anyway, his response reminded me of what you all have written here. Just because I cannot fit myself into a box and put a neat little label on it, doesn't mean it's the end of the road for me. I have been so afraid that if I cannot find something to believe in - something that other people believe in - then I will be totally alone, in the same sense, I suppose, that some people believe they are going to hell. For me it just means that I have a lot of space in which to navigate what truly does resonate for me, what speaks to my spirit. It's just a matter of remember it when I feel I'm alone in the dark.

[PsykhikosAnarchosNautikos]

Re: The long and winding path.

This thread is exactly how I have been feeling lately and needed to see I am not so alone on this ever changing adventure. Synchronicity- I have been noticing this more and more as I open up to myself and environment.

I was raised by a Scientologist mother and half-way Scientologist father (both are now out). Much like many of the (ex or current) Christian/Catholics on this thread there was much fear that if I did not follow the 'tech' (their philosophy) I would never truly be happy nor spiritually free, but on a positive note, I still utilize some of the 'tech' which has done wonders for me. I am no longer a part of the church (actually, I am excommunicated) and have always questioned things, which led to many dark places, yet some very positive places as well.

As I searched for my inner light and divine potential (I actually find this kind of funny) I have come to understand myself as a Left-Hand Path Philosopher with a deep reverence for Nature and childlike musings and practices. To clarify, I do not work with demons, I see the the devil as a boogey man to scare children, heaven and hell do not exist accept in religion and I believe in spiritual forces beyond my control and understanding, beneficial and otherwise and I accept all faiths and life paths as long as the people and groups allow me my beliefs and practices assuming neither are harming anyone or anything unless under a dire life or death situation. What makes me a Left-Hand Path practitioner is I do not view that the divine has to play a role in ones life, but can if one chooses. Faith is not based upon doctrine or upbringing, but personal experience and verified results... but I guess this isn't so much Left-Hand Path as it is just the way the journey works.

I very much want to define myself, but I have found it either comes with a high price (loss of relationships, spiritual travail) and is nearly impossible for someone that doesn't believe in religion or society as positive, guiding forces and Nature is too busy trying to save herself to help us greedy and psychically/spiritually closed off creatures (I am teaching myself to listen again, though). It seems a label is hard for most of us to acquire, and even unnecessary for some, but I think it is valuable in determining where we are and where we are going, or want to go.

I threw away my Left-Hand Path beliefs (mainly Satanic) out of fear that my past workings were going to bite me in the rear. I got into Wicca, but it was missing the darker aspects I love so dearly. I got into Buddhism but it is too strict and its history is extremely male-chauvinistic oriented (women could not become enlightened- they must return in the next lifetime as a man for such a state of being). I tried Catholicism, but don't believe in Christ as the Son of God, nor do I believe in God in that since. I got into Hinduism and chanted many a deity mantra in devotion (and to acquire certain states of being), and realized I do not believe in God nor the All nor the necessity for me to annihilate my self-consciousness in union with this source of being. I once again got into Satanism and found out about Luciferianism, but found them too restricting for my spiritual beliefs and too involved in self worship. I turned to modern (psychic) vampirism, and still struggle with it as a reality for myself, but find it (no offense if there are any vampires reading this) at least for myself, a state of weak mindedness and victim mentality, although I struggle with the drainage of my energy for no apparent reason. Many New Age practices and doctrines intrigued me but it seemed the many practitioners were not just 'fluffy' but were in denial that any thing bad exists (balance is important) and their psychic gifts, although real and quite astounding to be honest, still left them seeming judgmental and 'know it alls' and their healing methods just not effective.

I am still searching, but what I found has helped me is being honest with my self (and those I can communicate with about such things) and learning to be a child again. Perceive the Faerie worlds (a great festival, as well), interact with it, get out of my comfort zone and continue to search, but do it more in the name of imagination and learning to have more fun in life, not for what the adults have termed spiritual growth, but how children are already apart of such a fantastic, magical and real world of being and play.

[Bhilithinn]

Re: The long and winding path.

darksyderainmaker: Just a suggestion. Could it be at all possible that you actually are gnostic? Not that I believe you *have* to label yourself. The beliefs of gnostic Christians vary quite a bit - both historically and today. But, the common thread is that they believe in the importance of knowledge and spiritual experiences. Many do not believe in a literal interpretation of Christ - some would believe that he is/was an archetype - some believe he was a human who achieved gnosis/enlightenment and then taught others - some believe that the God of the old testament and Jesus are both divine, but are actually separate gods (not a trinity). Anyway, I don't know if that's a perfect representation of Gnostic Christianity, but it might be worth looking into to see whether it has any relation to your beliefs .

[callmeclemens]

Re: The long and winding path.

It's mornings like this that hurt the most. Guilt, Sadness, Sorrow, Fear. Last night I happened to drive past my old Catholic School now closed and empty St. Josephs. I made the mistake of pulling over and going for a walk, up to the school yard, around to the Church, garden, and grotto of our Blessed Mother. I re you knelt at the shrine for prayer but stopped myself "What are you doing James?" but before I knew it there I was kneeling before the statue a much younger boy was once given the honor to crown "boy wasn't that nice"I thought to myself, all my family came to see me do it, "a matter of fact I got to take the restof the day off!" I smiled a bit, as I saw an old couple much like my grand parents appear from the great wooden doors of the church, "Must have been lighting candles" I thought. Sending their intentions probably about a grandson like me up to God, just like my Grand Father does.

That brought me sorrow. Why can I not appreciate what I was given I kept asking myself, a church a faith, a religious family, why can't I just accept it? I've been told by loved ones in the past that my desire for true understanding and spirituality is simply me "putting down my cross" giving up my trust in God. Abandoning the Church and with it the community and the Family that had come with it.

My thoughts we're racing, I felt paralyzed at the shrine, like I was sinking. I looked up and saw the parish hall not one-hundred yards away. Twelve years ago a younger me stood tied to a prop cross in our eight-grade passion play I the repentant sinner who was crucified with Christ, Saint Dimas, my few lines came barreling into my mind

^"


Not to be to dramatic but I got rather emotional and just stayed there for a while, almost into darkness missing my plans that I had made for the evening.

I then looked up to see the World around me, The Sun was still shinning just barely over the horizon, and the wind was getting to be quiet Chilly giving me goosebumps I hadn't noticed. Across the court I saw two cat's playing, and was overwhelmed by the sounds of the birds in the dogwood tree's that surrounded me. While I had come to a place to wallow in sadness and sorrow but life continued to churn around me, and that is something I needed to see. I stood and Blessed myself, out of respect of of now another's Blessed Mother. I began the long walk back to my truck feeling grateful for all those things that made my Childhood a happy one, and really thought ahead, looking forward to finding that happiness for the rest of my days knowing now I carry it with me wherever I go.

[Moonlight Mayhem]

Re: The long and winding path.

I have recently found myself going to church with the rest of my family, just to see if there's still a connection. The services are beautiful and I find myself wanting to bask in that beauty. I'm still very interested in Paganism but I've been having nightmares as of late. It makes me angry at times, not to mention afraid, but I continue learning in spite of the fear. I just hope for more peace and understanding in the future. I wish the same for you.