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    Interesting legal case

    Man tricks girlfriend into abortion

    Here's the story, if you don't want to or can't watch the video-

    Girlfriend is pregnant, and excited and thrilled to be having a baby.

    Boyfriend doesn't want to be a dad.

    His solution to the dilemma is to swap out her amoxicillin for a drug which causes abortions.

    In addition to being charged with product tampering, he is charged with first degree murder of the fetus. It is possible, if found guilty, that he could be facing life in prison.

    This is due to a federal law - The Unborn Victims of Violence Act.

    Thoughts?
    Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.


    #2
    Re: Interesting legal case

    Sick man. Throw in Assault for making the girl bleed.
    White and Red 'till I'm cold and dead.
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    The thistle, shamrock, rose entwined,
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      #3
      Re: Interesting legal case

      No woman should be forced into having either an abortion or a baby against her will.
      sigpic
      Can you hear me, Major Tom? I think I love you.

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        #4
        Re: Interesting legal case

        I agree. To me, this looks like justice.
        Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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          #5
          Re: Interesting legal case

          What a monsterous thing for him to do.

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            #6
            Re: Interesting legal case

            I know that I'm on the undesirable end of the spectrum, but...

            I think this is just RIGHT. Of course it's [what he did] wrong and he should be charged with murder.

            On the other hand, a woman who gets pregnant from voluntary participation in sex and kills the MAN'S baby should be equally charged. It's one thing to be a victim of rape or incest, or for your own life to be in danger.

            But it upsets and rather sickens me that the concern is only that she was tricked into an abortion, nothing else. Shame on him for "forcing" an abortion on her and thus he should be charged with murder rather than simple assault like anyone else who attacked but didn't kill a person.

            Complete disgusting, sickening, ugly double-standard in my mind.

            Sorry, I know that's a horribly unpopular viewpoint, but that's mine. He should be legally held responsible for the life he took--and so should women. Either that, or drop the "murder" rap for guys who do this and make it simple assault... after all, no one was murdered... or were they? Pick one and stick with it and make it EQUAL rights.


            EDIT: When women refuse to have abortions, men should be able to sue them. After all, they are sentencing the man to 18 years of financial enslavement. That shouldn't be legal. She gets a "get out of it free" card while men are charged with first degree murder? Seriously?

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              #7
              Re: Interesting legal case

              I think they've got the sentencing wrong. I think he should be charged with the attempted manslaughter of his girlfriend. Drugs that cause abortion can also kill the adult carrying the fetus.
              The forum member formerly known as perzephone. Or Perze. I've shed a skin.

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                #8
                Re: Interesting legal case

                Emotionally, no problem with this case whatsoever.

                Practically, I can see this leading to a legal cluster**** of epic proportion. Legal cfs have been known to have weird as hell side effects so while I'm all for inflicting as much punishment as available on the guy, I'm also concerned that this approach will have unpredictable side effects. Wouldn't stop me from doing the exact same thing in the prosecutor's place but I'm not the prosecutor so I'm gonna entertain a moment of concern that this could spiral well beyond punishing one man.
                life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


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                  #9
                  Re: Interesting legal case

                  I have frequently been told that, since we don't have an established definition of "human," it is up to the individual to determine if the fetus they are carrying is human or not.

                  It looks to me that this is exactly what is happening here. She wanted the baby, so, in her view, it is human, and first degree murder is the appropriate charge.

                  It is pretty awkward to have flexible definitions of human, though, as SPhoenix correctly (IMHO) points out, so abortion can be legal, or murder, depending on whether the woman wanted it to happen or not.

                  I don't feel that attempted manslaughter is the appropriate sentence, though, Perzephone, because, while it allows one to avoid the weirdness created by a flexible definition of human, it will not give justice to the woman who feels - and since you've almost certainly met pregnant women who gush about the child inside them, you know what I mean by "feels" - that her baby has been murdered.
                  Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                    #10
                    Re: Interesting legal case

                    Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                    I don't feel that attempted manslaughter is the appropriate sentence, though, Perzephone, because, while it allows one to avoid the weirdness created by a flexible definition of human, it will not give justice to the woman who feels - and since you've almost certainly met pregnant women who gush about the child inside them, you know what I mean by "feels" - that her baby has been murdered.
                    It's probably one of those State-by-State definitions. If I was the prosecutor, I would go w/attempted manslaughter and tampering with medication - in many states, that's also felony. If it's a known dangerous substance added to food or medication, it can still be attempted murder - but the guy's defense atty would probably argue that the guy didn't know the abortion pills could possibly kill the woman. By sticking with the adult victim and not the legally fuzzy fetus, the guy is more likely to be charged and sentenced with a lengthy prison term.

                    Of course, a simple and easily argued case wouldn't make the news.
                    The forum member formerly known as perzephone. Or Perze. I've shed a skin.

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                      #11
                      Re: Interesting legal case

                      Originally posted by perzephone View Post
                      It's probably one of those State-by-State definitions. If I was the prosecutor, I would go w/attempted manslaughter and tampering with medication - in many states, that's also felony. If it's a known dangerous substance added to food or medication, it can still be attempted murder - but the guy's defense atty would probably argue that the guy didn't know the abortion pills could possibly kill the woman. By sticking with the adult victim and not the legally fuzzy fetus, the guy is more likely to be charged and sentenced with a lengthy prison term.

                      Of course, a simple and easily argued case wouldn't make the news.
                      It's not a legally fuzzy fetus, though. Under Federal Law (and he is being prosecuted by the Feds), the fetus is a human - with explicit language exempting voluntary abortion from being prosecutable under this law:

                      Unborn Victims of Violence Act
                      Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Interesting legal case

                        Honestly, the fact that this is a federal law surprises me. Feds don't generally do local (well local within a state, DC and US territories can be different) crimes unless the crime impacts a federal concern or the feds are annoyed enough with the lack of useful activity from locals to start looking for ways to interfere*. The scope of this law sounds far more like something that would normally be handled at a state level. Shrug, it'll be interesting to see the appeal if the Feds win.

                        * Least this is my normal understanding. My knowledge on the subject is very general.
                        life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                        Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                        "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                        John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                        "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                        Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Interesting legal case

                          Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                          It's not a legally fuzzy fetus, though. Under Federal Law (and he is being prosecuted by the Feds), the fetus is a human - with explicit language exempting voluntary abortion from being prosecutable under this law:

                          Unborn Victims of Violence Act
                          I didn't know that had been created. I got sick of hearing about the Petersons and stopped watching the trial news about 2 months in :P

                          I brought the subject up to my husband, since he's got a law background, and he was surprised to find out that the Protection of the Unborn thing was only enacted in 2004 - he said that if the unborn fetus didn't count as a life to act as a deterrent to violent crime, then people would be assaulting pregnant women in order to cause miscarriage/abortion all the freaking time since punching someone is usually just misdemeanor assault.

                          I think the charges based on the assault or murder or attempted murder or whatever, of the primary victim - the mother - should be enough of a deterrent to prevent these kinds of crimes on their own without the added victim of the collection of cells that might eventually become a human being involved. I mean, we have personal violent crime in the US, but it's not like everyone just goes around punching one another because 'assault is only a misdemeanor'.
                          The forum member formerly known as perzephone. Or Perze. I've shed a skin.

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                            #14
                            Re: Interesting legal case

                            I think I agree with Perze's sentence. Messing with medication can kill a person, and therefore he should have been charged with attempted manslaughter and for messing with medication.

                            From an emotional "right in the feels" perspective, though - I think it's horrible of him to do, and I kinda think of it as 'killing the baby' even though I don't believe in humanity before the third trimester. But I think that's only cuz my hormones have been giving me 'make a baby' vibes for the last year.


                            Mostly art.

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                              #15
                              Re: Interesting legal case

                              Wooooooooo............talking about a can of worms. Personally, I want to know more.

                              I'm going to do a lot of "what iffing" here...and its going to be wildly unpopular, but let me throw some scenarios out there.

                              First off, we say its a "woman's body" and its "her right to choose" blah blah. But what if the guy had a conversation with the girl and said "I want to make extra sure I/we don't have any kids" and she goes "I agree." And he buys the condoms, and she "claims" to go get a BC shot/implant/whatever.....but the truth is she never goes on any form of birth control, and even goes so far as to poke holes in the condom. Everyone knows someone who was trapped in that way, either through stupidity or maliciousness. Everyone knows at least ONE person who was tricked into having kids by a lie. So, its not outside the realm of posibillity in THIS situation that she lied to him to get pregnant.

                              So, if the male does EVERYTHING possible in his power to not impregnante her, and she purpousely/willfully/intentionally sabotages the situation and gets pregnant.......then how is that the mans fault?

                              Another scenario........man/woman gets *oopsie* pregnant. Man says "This is wonderful! I'm going to be a dad!" Woman says "No you're not. Its my body and I'm not having a child." And has an abortion. Again I ask, how is that fair to the man?

                              I don't care what any man or woman says, there are too many birth control options out there for there ever to be any "oopsie" pregnancies. Guys, unless you trust her enough to risk the next 18-20 years of your life and half (or more) of everything you earn....then you need to wrap it before you tap it. Ladies, if you don't want to get pregnant, don't trust just the pill. Get the implant and/or something else and make sure you can't make any babies. One BC method may fail. Two seperate methods of BC, like an implant and condom....there is an astronomically small chance of it failing. Three? Say an implant, condom AND the guy pulls before he shoots? Its impossible.

                              Women are (supposedly) equal now. IMO, theres no more excuses. Gone are the days of the "oops" pregnancy, where the woman sits there quietly and gets comforted while everyone looks at the man and says "WHY did you do THAT?" Like he was just walking down the street, saw some chick and then raped her while yelling "I must impregnate this woman!!!!" Women should be held equally, if not more responsible for pregnancy because it IS their body.

                              In regards to the fetus who will never know life, this is sad. OTOH, I say the guy shouldn't be charged because he found a way to treat a woman the exact same way men have been treated since the dawn of time. Just now, with the help of modern chemistry, and I'm sure Google.....he has truly made the battle of the sexes equal.

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