Pre-Judaism polytheism?

[Consciousness]

Hello all,

I am very intrigued about knowledge of the Pre judaic religion. Judaism which is suppose to be a monotheistic religion originally came from a polytheistic culture. Yahweh the God of the bible was just one tribal God amongst many. His partner and his other 'half' was Asherah the great Goddess. Asherah is interesting, because we would never know of the story of the Garden of Eden if it were not for the great Goddess Asherah. Asherah was the Goddess of Eden. She is the one who sent the snake to actually GUIDE mankind to higher knowledge. The eating of the forbidden fruit was for the evolution of mankind. She is also known to be associated with Cannabis (one of my favorite aspects ).

Heres a video showing artifacts of pre-judaic idols signifying Asherah and Yahweh.

http://youtu.be/5PsmsJkpuzY

Does anyone else have other information on the pre-judaic religion?

Ong Thung Thunoraya Nama

[Malflick]

Re: Pre-Judaism polytheism?

thanks for bringing this up-- Judaism was nearly certainly Polytheistic at one point, however in what exact way is hard to pin down precisely.

Whatever way, its certain that Yahweh is the most powerful God in Abrahamic religion, and must be venerated as the most important. (Its notable that the bible says, "you will have no other Gods before me." Not no other Gods.)

Yahweh however, even in early Judaism takes many many forms, and it could be that other Jewish tribal deities were simply aspects of Yahweh in some form or another, one deity in many forms.

Aside from Asherah, Yahweh's consort ("the Queen of Heaven") Nehustahn is also notable, as God tells Moses to build a rod in Nehustahn's shape, and have people venerate it in order to cure some snake bites.

I'll be happy to discuss this more later, but I have to abruptly leave....

[GabrielWithoutWings]

Re: Pre-Judaism polytheism?

There was a web page dedicated to Canaanite religion but I think the organization is either defunct or has moved to something else.

Regardless, the web page is still up if you want to look through it.

Qadash Kinahnu

[Louisvillian]

Re: Pre-Judaism polytheism?

I was with you up until the "Asherah sent the snake to guide mankind" stuff. In most Western cultures, there's a myth of mankind falling from some golden age to its current state. That myth isn't likely to have been much different, let alone having a literally opposite meaning.
Second, it would be inaccurate to conflate Asherah and Astarte/Ishtar; in the Ugaritic writings that show evidence of El originally being considered one of many gods, those two goddesses are differentiated.

[Louisvillian]

Re: Pre-Judaism polytheism?

PS) And by "Western cultures" I mean both past and present cultures from the Western intellectual and cultural tradition. Indo-European and Semitic peoples from the Near East and Europe are included in that definition.

[Consciousness]

Re: Pre-Judaism polytheism?

Thanks all. I found a decent documentary called 'The Bibles Buried Secrets: Did God have a Wife' http://youtu.be/VtEsQT5M2IQ

I have an interest in learning more about the canaanite spirituality merely for knowledge of the spirituality before patriarchal monotheism came into play.

[Malflick]

Re: Pre-Judaism polytheism?

Thanks all. I found a decent documentary called 'The Bibles Buried Secrets: Did God have a Wife' http://youtu.be/VtEsQT5M2IQ

I have an interest in learning more about the canaanite spirituality merely for knowledge of the spirituality before patriarchal monotheism came into play.

I found the documentary as well, I only had time to watch the first half an hour last night (it is two hours long) but I'll be watching the rest soon. And it wasn't always patriarchal... Kept ending up that way... (sighs)

[RainbowDemonic]

Re: Pre-Judaism polytheism?

Does anyone else have other information on the pre-judaic religion?

You'll definitely want to take a look at this book. There's a free online PDF of it Here if you'd like. It goes really in-depth into the polytheistic beginnings of Judaism, the culture of the day, and so on. I recommend it highly and I've found it a really awesome read so far myself!

Also, if you'd like a summary of the book's material in a shorter format (not everyone has time to crack open a book), check out these two videos:

[Malflick]

Re: Pre-Judaism polytheism?

You'll definitely want to take a look at this book. There's a free online PDF of it Here if you'd like. It goes really in-depth into the polytheistic beginnings of Judaism, the culture of the day, and so on. I recommend it highly and I've found it a really awesome read so far myself!

Also, if you'd like a summary of the book's material in a shorter format (not everyone has time to crack open a book), check out these two videos:

Okay... So where to start. I should probably just ignore the second half of that video (could he have said "what if God is just a feeling we have?" any more times?) where he, ironically, gets away from citing any evidence, but there are some factual thing he gets wrong (and maybe there are more-- I'd have to look into some of the claims.)

His presentation that monotheism was never an aspect of Judaism till much later is in fact rejected by most modern scholars, despite his claim otherwise. However, biblical scholarship seems to think there was a long running conflict between a strict monotheism and a traditional polytheism in their culture, one which ebbed stronger and weaker throughout time. The origins of monotheism are far earlier than that guy claims-- monotheism in the Abrahamic sense is usually thought to stem from an appropriation of either the teachings of the Pharaoh Akhenaten, who eliminated the entire Egyptian pantheon (briefly) and replaced it with the worship of the one God, Aten--

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aten

(The Hymn to the Aten is very largely considered to be the ancestor of Psalm 104, and leaving out the idea that the Isrealites picked up Monotheism from the remains of Akhenaten's failed religion seems a very large thing to leave out...)
--or from Zoroastrianism, at some point or another, a religion which started monotheistic from the very beginning, and which Christianity and Judaism very clearly appropriated many ideas from (indeed, the idea of a coming Messiah is from the Zoroastrian idea of a Saoshant). Ignoring Zoroastrianism, one of the oldest religions in the world, seems... Problematic, to say the least.

Also, his claim that Yahweh and El Shaddai having their names conflated is very suspect as being suspect, because there are far more names for God than just those two, even in the same time frame. Plenty of Gods in plenty of Pantheons have multiple names, that serve different meanings for different times, and so that claim stands on very wibbily wobbily ground.

But Baal and Asherah and El Shaddai chilling together? Yep. That's how it worked. And Josiah's iconoclastic destruction of the Asherah poles and other icons is very ironic in that he also destroyed the icon of Nehustan that Yahweh had ordered Moses to make and people to venerate (sigh, come on Josiah!). Yay consistency! I never liked the Deuterotomists, and that part of the video... Yep. Spot on. They needed God to be one thing so they solidified God into what they needed God to be to make their rule work. They confused everybody afterwards....

Anyways, yes, the Abrahamic faith was definitely polytheistic back in its history, but that video portrays its transition to being monotheistic as being far simpler and more malicious than it really was. Like many religions, it picked up on new ideas and transitioned over time. I haven't read that book (obviously, since I only just heard of it) but skimming it, it looks quite a bit better researched than the video that guy made about it.



(I hope I didn't come off as abrasive, I always feel like I'm going to when I point out incorrect things in things :P, so my apologies if I sounded too gruff)

- - - Updated - - -

(did a bit of looking, it looks like there is a divide between scholars who think Yahweh was an epithet of El, as I postulated, or a separate God, as the video postulated. I guess the main point is that its not a certainty either way.)

[RainbowDemonic]

Re: Pre-Judaism polytheism?

Okay... So where to start. I should probably just ignore the second half of that video (could he have said "what if God is just a feeling we have?" any more times?) where he, ironically, gets away from citing any evidence, but there are some factual thing he gets wrong (and maybe there are more-- I'd have to look into some of the claims.)

I haven't read that book (obviously, since I only just heard of it) but skimming it, it looks quite a bit better researched than the video that guy made about it.

My apologies, I forgot to add sort of a warning that the guy summarizing the book comes from a pretty biased standpoint! I don't necessarily agree with the atheistic assertions he draws at the end of his video series, of course since here I am having drawn entirely different conclusions than he, even if from similar sets of evidence. I totally derped - I was thinking "Wait this one guy summarizes the book" and just sort of tossed that up as an addendum to my post.

Yeah, so far the book takes a far more in-depth and even more reverent viewpoint than the atheist dude. If I remember right, I think the author's belief is that God is an important thing that inspires many and takes many different forms to many different people(s), but that cannot be fully described. Either way, the book does take a different approach (which the video guy points out as well) and thus far I've really enjoyed reading it.

[Malflick]

Re: Pre-Judaism polytheism?

My apologies, I forgot to add sort of a warning that the guy summarizing the book comes from a pretty biased standpoint! I don't necessarily agree with the atheistic assertions he draws at the end of his video series, of course since here I am having drawn entirely different conclusions than he, even if from similar sets of evidence. I totally derped - I was thinking "Wait this one guy summarizes the book" and just sort of tossed that up as an addendum to my post.

Yeah, so far the book takes a far more in-depth and even more reverent viewpoint than the atheist dude. If I remember right, I think the author's belief is that God is an important thing that inspires many and takes many different forms to many different people(s), but that cannot be fully described. Either way, the book does take a different approach (which the video guy points out as well) and thus far I've really enjoyed reading it.

(How did I miss this in the news feed? Oh well, at least I saw you responded now XD)
Not a problem, and yes, it was a rather biased standpoint he had, but not your fault. I've done far derpier things on forums trying to find an easy summary for someone (I learned the hard way to always watch a video you post to the end first lol...)

The book definitely sounds intriguing. I've been thinking a lot about whether Christianity is Monotheist or Monolatrist (or I guess, should be) so this is a key thing for me to look at.

[Yazichestvo]

Re: Pre-Judaism polytheism?

Okay... So where to start.

Indeed.

His presentation that monotheism was never an aspect of Judaism till much later is in fact rejected by most modern scholars, despite his claim otherwise. However, biblical scholarship seems to think there was a long running conflict between a strict monotheism and a traditional polytheism in their culture, one which ebbed stronger and weaker throughout time.

Most scholars acknowledge that the Hebrews shared ancestors with the other semitic cultures, who, in general, seem to have been polytheistic with a head God El/Allah. You may argue that monism or henotheism are very ancient, dating even back to a proto-Semitic culture. In the Canaanite El, you may argue you have a Deus Otiosus. However, true monotheism shows up as a late development among the semitic cultures, way after polytheistic texts, and originating from among only one branch; the Hebrews. You can argue the time frame, but at some point, if you go back far enough, there was little or no difference between Hebrew and Canaanite. I think that is actually widely (though not universally) accepted.

The origins of monotheism are far earlier than that guy claims-- monotheism in the Abrahamic sense is usually thought to stem from an appropriation of either the teachings of the Pharaoh Akhenaten, who eliminated the entire Egyptian pantheon (briefly) and replaced it with the worship of the one God, Aten--

Sure, the idea of monotheism could well have emerged there. Is that Judaism though? Not really. I don't think the Gods of Abraham is actually based on a Pharaoh.

--or from Zoroastrianism, at some point or another, a religion which started monotheistic from the very beginning, and which Christianity and Judaism very clearly appropriated many ideas from (indeed, the idea of a coming Messiah is from the Zoroastrian idea of a Saoshant). Ignoring Zoroastrianism, one of the oldest religions in the world, seems... Problematic, to say the least.

There's no denying similarity there, although again, you can argue whether this was what we today would call monotheism, what with the worship of various yazatas. My only major issue is with the claim that the Saoshyant predates the messiah. While the term certainly does, some of the writings associated with "the Saoshyant" are written after Christianity and Islam, and are thought to have been influenced by them.

Also, his claim that Yahweh and El Shaddai having their names conflated is very suspect as being suspect, because there are far more names for God than just those two, even in the same time frame. Plenty of Gods in plenty of Pantheons have multiple names, that serve different meanings for different times, and so that claim stands on very wibbily wobbily ground.

Perhaps not. The word El can simply translated as "God". Then again, the fact that the Canaanite's would simply call their supreme deity "El", with no other title- just like in parts of the Bible- is compelling. What's more, like the Abrahamic God, he was considered a consort of Asherah, at least in Ugarit. As I have said, all the Semitic people appear to have had a creator God El/Allah/Ilu/ Elohanu etc. The comparison between the two El's is not arbitrary.

[Malflick]

Re: Pre-Judaism polytheism?

Most scholars acknowledge that the Hebrews shared ancestors with the other semitic cultures, who, in general, seem to have been polytheistic with a head God El/Allah. You may argue that monism or henotheism are very ancient, dating even back to a proto-Semitic culture. In the Canaanite El, you may argue you have a Deus Otiosus. However, true monotheism shows up as a late development among the semitic cultures, way after polytheistic texts, and originating from among only one branch; the Hebrews. You can argue the time frame, but at some point, if you go back far enough, there was little or no difference between Hebrew and Canaanite. I think that is actually widely (though not universally) accepted.

I wasn't arguing that "true" monotheism was there yet, rather as I stated, that there was a continueing conflict between the two that led to what was a society that ended up being polytheistic. However, the confustion here is entirely my fault, as I'm used to using monotheism in a much broader sense, and what I meant was "henotheism versus polytheism" there is very little evidence that the existance of other Gods was denied (indeed, the OT seems to assume it) up until the great Babylonian exile, when the Temple was burned and the Jews kicked out of their homeland. Then monotheism became the answer-- the solution to why YHWH had let the Babylonians beat them up, because they hadn't been being monotheist. Up until the exile there are lots of idols to other Gods found in Judaic dig sites, after it, there are none, which is a rather huge change.

Anyways, sorry I suck at terminology.

Sure, the idea of monotheism could well have emerged there. Is that Judaism though? Not really. I don't think the Gods of Abraham is actually based on a Pharaoh.

I do. I really really do. And is it Judaism? No, no more than Christianity is Judaism even though it stemmed from it. But do I think its the same God? Absolutely.

There's no denying similarity there, although again, you can argue whether this was what we today would call monotheism, what with the worship of various yazatas. My only major issue is with the claim that the Saoshyant predates the messiah. While the term certainly does, some of the writings associated with "the Saoshyant" are written after Christianity and Islam, and are thought to have been influenced by them.

People still venerate Archangels, and we call it monotheism, so thats a larger debate I'm not sure I should touch.

As for the Saoshant/Messiah: You have a very strong point there, and its something I should do more research on before I talk about it. I hadn't heard about the writings being later before, so I guess I need to go learn stuff. Which should be fun.

Perhaps not. The word El can simply translated as "God". Then again, the fact that the Canaanite's would simply call their supreme deity "El", with no other title- just like in parts of the Bible- is compelling. What's more, like the Abrahamic God, he was considered a consort of Asherah, at least in Ugarit. As I have said, all the Semitic people appear to have had a creator God El/Allah/Ilu/ Elohanu etc. The comparison between the two El's is not arbitrary.

I think you misunderstood me-- I was arguing they were all the same diety. The guy in the video was saying that they were in fact seperate dieties. So.... I totally agree with what you just said. Apparently I have just been super unclear in expressing myself in this thread XD...

Oh, and thanks for responding. Always good to discuss these things with intelligent people.

[EclecticWheel]

Re: Pre-Judaism polytheism?

This thread is kind of old, but I thought I'd add something.

I never heard of Asherah sending the snake to guide us, although this is a common theme in the scriptural compilation called The Gnostic Bible.

Judaism does indeed have polytheistic origins. Yahweh was worshipped as "God Most High" among his pantheon -- he was the head. That is why in Job the adversary (not the devil) had to ask Yahweh for permission to test Job.

Jewish Study Bible: Tanakh Translation is full of information on this topic, especially in the commentary on the Torah and the book of Job, but it is also in the Psalms and many other parts of the Hebrew Bible. I don't know if that's your kind of reading, but I've learned immensely from it. It is an absolutely fascinating book.