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    How Does Magic(k) Work?

    There was a thread posted here already asking "how does magic work" but it seems that the replies quickly devolved into an argument about prayer vs. Magic instead of answering the original question.
    When I have read through the books sections of how to do "magic" they do not explain satisfactorily the concept of how the magic works, only that it does. That somehow gathering the right things and saying the right words with "intent" will get you what you need/want out of the spell. If it works than you did the spell right and if it doesn't than it wasn't "meant to be?" but if it was meant to be than it would have happened whether of not you did the spell??? it just is confusing and seems...futile. So, since a lot of people on this site say that magic works for them and that it is a real thing in their lives can you please tell me HOW it works beyond faith in what is meant to be.

    It is a difficult subject to put into words but I am interested in learning about it.

    #2
    Re: How Does Magic(k) Work?

    It is going to be tough to explain "how" magic works its not easy to test, and ya can't see it, so any answers you get are going to be theories... and you are going to get a whole bunch of them. Keep in mind though, that none of them may answer your question satisfactorily.
    Personally I feel like magic works by facilitation. another force facilitates what you are working in the spell, whether it be deities, elementals, spirits, winds, ancestors, animal and plant spirits, or even your own spirit. Whichever you are asking and whichever suits your purpose best.
    Personally though I would not be afraid to say that I think it is entirely possible that magic also works within your mind. You believe you have cast a love spell on this person, and so do not fear talking to them about your feelings, giving you the confidence to start a relationship. I am not particularly concerned if it is all in my head because it works for me. It works for me and I would not stop doing it even if someone could prove to me that it is all just inside my head. I don't think it is, but I don't dismiss the possibility outright...
    http://catcrowsnow.blogspot.com/

    But they were doughnuts of darkness. Evil damned doughnuts, tainted by the spawn of darkness.... Which could obviously only be redeemed by passing through the fiery inferno of my digestive tract.
    ~Jim Butcher

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      #3
      Re: How Does Magic(k) Work?

      Well there are a ton of different ideas about that, quite a few traditions seem to have wildly disparate ideas of how exactly what they do works, and I'm sure more than one of them can provide a valid explanation and/or working model for the various methods of working magic.

      My understanding, which is mostly informed by hermetic philosophy, (and I apologize if I give a poor explanation, I'm quite new to all this relatively speaking) is that reality extends beyond the purely physical realm into multiple layers, from the gross material up into the infinite divine, and that within these layers exist forces and entities with their own laws, natures, purposes, etc. The human mind and soul, through a process of psycho-spiritual development, is made capable of interacting with these higher realms and the forces/beings within (or more accurately, returns to be able to do so after the descent of incarnation into the material world to experience life and death from a physical perspective), and by knowing the laws that govern them the magician can affect these forces or work with these entities to create the desired change in reality. In this view, magic doesn't work outside or against the natural world, but extends from a higher understanding of it. Kind of like resorting to federal law instead of state law, or invoking the supreme court, change can be made that seems, to those lacking the proper knowledge, to contradict the system, but in actuality stems from reaching into a higher portion of it.

      The Seven Hermetic Principles from The Kybalion give a good example of how much of this is thought to work, though it really only scratches the surface: http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/kyb/index.htm

      There's also a really good chapter on the very basics of hermetic theory in the first section of Franz Bardon's Initiation Into Hermetics which touches on the elements, the different planes, the three bodies, the vital force and the electric/magnetic forces (roughly equivalent to the Taoist concepts of Chi/Yang/Yin, which also appear in Yoga with different terminology - this is where the whole 'energy' concept in magic comes from, although I think 'energy' is a misnomer and it creates a lot of confusion with the modern scientific notion of energy) etc etc. You'll notice that a lot of this is very much in line with the modern Wiccan conception of magic, since Wicca was heavily influenced by hermetic philosophy via. Gardner's experience with the Golden Dawn system of ritual magic. Dubuis's Fundamentals of Esoteric Knowledge is another good read for a more alchemical angle on it, I haven't touched on Alchemy/Kabalah much since I don't think I understand them well enough to explain them sufficiently, but they're tied together in the same stream of western occult philosophy.

      Comment


        #4
        Re: How Does Magic(k) Work?

        Originally posted by Celliehwyn View Post
        When I have read through the books sections of how to do "magic" they do not explain satisfactorily the concept of how the magic works, only that it does.
        A lot of writers, even those that have actively practised magic for a long time, aren't sure of how it works. Or at least of how to describe the process. Some have tried, but it invariably requires a leap of faith. An assumption of some sort, e.g. that one's willpower can literally move objects or cause shit to happen, or that spirits exist that carry out your magical working. The only way to really confirm it is through personal experience and taking that as evidence.

        Comment


          #5
          Re: How Does Magic(k) Work?

          If we knew, it would not be so magical.
          White and Red 'till I'm cold and dead.
          sigpic
          In Days of yore,
          From Britain's shore
          Wolfe the dauntless hero came
          And planted firm Britannia's flag
          On Canada's fair domain.
          Here may it wave,
          Our boast, our pride
          And joined in love together,
          The thistle, shamrock, rose entwined,
          The Maple Leaf Forever.

          Comment


            #6
            Re: How Does Magic(k) Work?

            Originally posted by Doc_Holliday View Post
            If we knew, it would not be so magical.
            Yep. Then it would be science...
            I often wish that I had done drugs in the '70s. At least there'd be a reason for the flashbacks. - Rick the Runesinger

            Blood and CountryTribe of my Tribe
            Clan of my Clan
            Kin of my Kin
            Blood of my Blood



            For the Yule was upon them, the Yule; and they quaffed from the skulls of the slain,
            And shouted loud oaths in hoarse wit, and long quaffing swore laughing again.

            Comment


              #7
              Re: How Does Magic(k) Work?

              I disagree though, a lot of scientific things can be magical even with all of the answers (which I wasn't expecting to get all the answers about this, obviously) such as growing a child in your womb, how a tiny seedling becomes a huge tree, and the pictures of beautiful deep space galaxies. Even though magic is considered a personal practice and art I think that it's a shame that so many people choose to keep all of their magical experiences private. Perhaps how it works for one person is not the same for all but I'd like to hear success stories or something? that does sound like I'm buying something off an infomercial though :P not intended like that. Thanks for the admittance of magic just being a theory, Maria de luna, I like the way you put it, that even if it is just in your mind it still works, thank you. I'm just wanting more information about how to go about it too, besides the gathering of various plants, rocks and stuff. I just want to say that I do believe in energy work on a small scale I just have a hard time thinking about anything on the larger scale. Maybe I just need a firmer grip on Life energy work.

              Comment


                #8
                Re: How Does Magic(k) Work?

                But you see, magic by exact definition is "The power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces."

                Problem is, Science is, admittedly sometimes mysterious, but never supernatural. Because supernatural by definition is "Attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature." So magic instantly surpasses science into a world of nobodies thorough understanding. So asking people how magic works is like asking how babies are made, nobody knows, but seriously there are no answers. And if we knew, it would lose all mystery and all supernatural qualities because no longer would it be beyond the laws of nature and our understanding. It just becomes textbook science.
                White and Red 'till I'm cold and dead.
                sigpic
                In Days of yore,
                From Britain's shore
                Wolfe the dauntless hero came
                And planted firm Britannia's flag
                On Canada's fair domain.
                Here may it wave,
                Our boast, our pride
                And joined in love together,
                The thistle, shamrock, rose entwined,
                The Maple Leaf Forever.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: How Does Magic(k) Work?

                  I've considered a few possibilities.
                  Theory one regards people being conduits for magical energy and capable or directing it to alter things. The more power you have the more effect you can bring about with the constraints of a "magic cap", amount of magic you can hold, being the limit for that effecting potential. This theory is the one I more readily believe, probably because of fantasy literature and games influencing it. Explanation for spell failure could be a lack of energy, a lack of knowledge to the way to perform the task, or something else in that vein.
                  ex: Basically magic is like an appendage which one can make to move about changing things; in the same way you could pick up a cup you could also slap it if you don't know how to work your arm.

                  My second theory is that the universe is less "solid" than we think and reality is more changeable and fluid than outright concrete. In this way magic nudges the fabric of reality to enact changes. This coincides with my nihilist philosophies in that any portion of reality or reality itself may or may not exist and if it does is not in any way absolute.
                  Although under nihilistic philosophy the whole thing could be a hallucination (and possibly not even my own) and even if it's not the point is moot since knowledge itself may or may not exist. Not using enough power or fluctuating "solidness" of reality or simple "that is not possible in this system" could be explanations for why spells fail.
                  ex: I make a weather spell. My magic nudges the fabric of reality to create favorable conditions for a storm in my area. The exact manner isn't important but reality itself has changed due to my spell.

                  A third theory is that our personal gods(not worshiped deities generally)/astral selves/guardian deity(or angel or ect) are the ones that actually make magic work, probably by subtly doing things in the spiritual realm that effect the material. Though to consider this theory one must first acknowledge the existence of a spiritual world and then that events in one world effect the other. For example if I were to curse someone my astral self/personal god/ect may go to the astral persona/personal god of the victim and do something to them which would effect the person's material body or environment. This theory I was inspired to think of when reading a story that involved certain African mythologies and the concept of their personal gods. Possibly also in the category of this theory is the deity you worship or your guardian deity "doing your dirty work" and effecting a change. In that scenario humans may or may not actually have magic but instead could be asking deities or borrowing their powers. Could explain why spells sometimes fail when the intermediary doesn't obey or when another astral being intervenes.

                  Fourth theory is that the universe works in vast mechanization or some sort of cosmic bureaucracy. In some way we use premade channels or mechanisms to enact change. The universe could be a vast machine of sorts that we activate certain parts of to make magic that causes a gear turn effect that casues a change somewhere else. The other possibility here is that cosmic entities have a bureaucratic system assigning when and how spells are to work, to what degree, and then after deliberating causing the change (probably in a similar manner to the above theory).
                  ex 1: my spell pulls a cosmic lever that makes gears turn that does something that makes my spell work
                  ex 2: my spell is an invoice which is processed by multidimensional entity A (lets call him Phillip). Phillip reviews my spell, rejects it if it is outright impossible, brings it before the board of directors who debate and if it passes Phillip files it into a massive dimensional file cabinet.

                  The fifth Theory is that magic is a string of delusions, coincidences and looking for patterns where none actually exist. It's all a hoax and the effect would've happened if I did a spell or not. Overlaps with placebo effect.
                  ex 1: I curse someone. The next day that person is diagnosed with a terminal illness which has taken months to develop. My curse had no effect on the person because magic isnt real (note: this ex could be applied to theory 2 as well)
                  ex 2: I make a sweet dreams spell to combat my insomnia. Because I believe the spell will work I feel better and I can sleep.
                  Circe

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: How Does Magic(k) Work?

                    I'm going to post my personal theory in short. Although I don't work with magic, something keeps me away from it.

                    But anyways. I think all living things give off an energy, these can be good energies, bad energies etc. etc.
                    I think magic is the basic practice of gathering these energies that were left around and bringing yourself to a magnet like state through meditation or ritual/spellcasting where you can use this energy to do your will more or less. So for instance, you do an elaborate ritual to curse somebody, so over that ritual you were gathering tons of negative energy in a sort of personal battery. Then when you use the spell to direct that energy you send it to your target, then the negative energy causes the negative things to happen. This is kind of far out I know but its how I've been seeing it.
                    White and Red 'till I'm cold and dead.
                    sigpic
                    In Days of yore,
                    From Britain's shore
                    Wolfe the dauntless hero came
                    And planted firm Britannia's flag
                    On Canada's fair domain.
                    Here may it wave,
                    Our boast, our pride
                    And joined in love together,
                    The thistle, shamrock, rose entwined,
                    The Maple Leaf Forever.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: How Does Magic(k) Work?

                      Personally, I don't believe in destiny or fate. I believe that the Gods can bless, guide and set us up for circumstances should they so choose, but we most definitely have free will in all cases. Personal experience: I believe that Pele blessed me and my family - I didn't know I had parents out there, and they were set to be in Hawaii months ago. As luck would have it, their move was postponed due to unfortunate circumstances - or not so unfortunate: During that setback, we learned that they were my parents and I was their son. We are now a family and are set to live on the island together. I believe that Pele wanted my parents to have me with them on the island, and set things up so that such could be. Could I have turned down the offer, though? I sure could have.

                      That said, no one knows for certain exactly how magic works. Many of us liken the Universe to a spiderweb that is spun by the Goddess/Spider Woman/Female Divine/Divine Source or what have you, and that this web is ALL - the entire Universe and everything in it, including us. Magic works, some say, by learning to manipulate your own strand of the Web, which in turn affects greater parts of the Web. By this explanation, we can say that magic is the manipulation of energies - your spell causes a ripple across the Web, which in turn creates the intended change.
                      Children love and want to be loved and they very much prefer the joy of accomplishment to the triumph of hateful failure. Do not mistake a child for his symptom.
                      -Erik Erikson

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: How Does Magic(k) Work?

                        Originally posted by Clive View Post

                        That said, no one knows for certain exactly how magic works. Many of us liken the Universe to a spiderweb that is spun by the Goddess/Spider Woman/Female Divine/Divine Source or what have you, and that this web is ALL - the entire Universe and everything in it, including us. Magic works, some say, by learning to manipulate your own strand of the Web, which in turn affects greater parts of the Web. By this explanation, we can say that magic is the manipulation of energies - your spell causes a ripple across the Web, which in turn creates the intended change.
                        I've put that very similarly! I liken it to how we each are stones skipping on the water, making ripples.
                        sigpic
                        Can you hear me, Major Tom? I think I love you.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: How Does Magic(k) Work?

                          Originally posted by Doc_Holliday View Post
                          But you see, magic by exact definition is "The power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces."

                          Problem is, Science is, admittedly sometimes mysterious, but never supernatural. Because supernatural by definition is "Attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature." So magic instantly surpasses science into a world of nobodies thorough understanding. So asking people how magic works is like asking how babies are made, nobody knows, but seriously there are no answers. And if we knew, it would lose all mystery and all supernatural qualities because no longer would it be beyond the laws of nature and our understanding. It just becomes textbook science.
                          If you use the dictionary definition, sure, but it's pretty useless imo because 'supernatural' is a meaningless phrase, both because by definition if something exists, it's a part of the natural order of the universe (unless we're talking some hypothetical Lovecraftian dimensional interlopers), and because the goalposts of what we define as 'supernatural' are constantly shifting as our scientific knowledge of the universe grows.

                          But that said, most theories of magic place it firmly in the realm of natural reality, albeit a poorly understood section of it (which is to say, the part you can't see no matter how expensive your microscope is). If you instead use some variation of the most popular non-dictionary definition, Crowley's 'causing change in conformity with the will, (although I'd append that with 'through non-material means' or something along those lines, or else everything is magic), then I think you can absolutely apply the scientific method to reaching a greater understanding of how it works, even if we don't immediately land on a provable explanation for why it works (and the same can be said for many things which we consider scientific, where we know a lot about 'how' it works but not so much about 'why').

                          In fact I'd argue that in many ways the approach taken to magic by a lot of traditions is rather scientific in nature: you have a goal in mind, and so you try different methods of reaching that goal, keep meticulous notes, compare what does and doesn't work, then pass on knowledge of what does work for other people to use. The first major problem is the highly subjective and variable nature of magic, and the inability to observe it mechanically due to it operating outside of material reality, but I don't think that's much more of an issue than is for something like psychology, let alone the 'social sciences.' The second is that if you take magic far enough, you start blurring into spirituality and religion and metaphysics, which are much trickier, but then again, look at where physics has ended up. You know what they say about science climbing to the top of the mountain...

                          And hell, if you want to drop the labels and call a spade a spade, parapsychology pretty much is a euphemism for 'the scientific study of magic.' Of course they'd rather poke their own eyes out than suffer the embarrassment of using that term, but any difference between what they currently label 'psi phenomenon' and magic is largely semantics. The problem is that despite producing quite a hefty load of published, peer-reviewed, reproducible evidence for the phenomena they're studying, parapsychology gets the shaft from the mainstream scientific establishment because accepting their evidence means a major paradigm shift for science in particular and society in general, and those kind of things just don't happen overnight. But the field is there, and they're quietly chugging away doing some fascinating work on ESP, OBE's, psychokinesis, spiritual healing, meditation, etc etc.

                          So yeah, I don't think they're inherently incompatible at all. Sure, one end of magic blurs into some stuff that's pretty hard to look at through a scientific lens, but there's no reason the other end can't at least hang out with science and swap some cool ideas, as soon as science gets over their whole post-enlightenment grudge and gets back on speaking terms with it
                          Last edited by Aeran; 11 Jul 2013, 13:25.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: How Does Magic(k) Work?

                            Re: Magic

                            I read something once upon a time that went something like this:

                            Clinging to 'beliefs' inhibits the gathering of true knowledge. A true magician is a scientist, not a believer. What is true must also be provable.

                            Assumption distracts the magician from appropriate investigation. Never assume or you will trade valuable discoveries for comfortable pretensions.

                            So, do we want real discoveries, or comfortable pretensions? That's something we all must ask ourselves.

                            @Celliehwyn. Mayhap ye might want to look into one of the various so called 'initiatory' organizations if you are actually interested in actual magic vs. what a lot of people these days unfortunately seem to think 'magic' is.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: How Does Magic(k) Work?

                              Originally posted by Corvus View Post
                              I've considered a few possibilities.

                              The fifth Theory is that magic is a string of delusions, coincidences and looking for patterns where none actually exist. It's all a hoax and the effect would've happened if I did a spell or not. Overlaps with placebo effect.
                              ex 1: I curse someone. The next day that person is diagnosed with a terminal illness which has taken months to develop. My curse had no effect on the person because magic isnt real (note: this ex could be applied to theory 2 as well)
                              ex 2: I make a sweet dreams spell to combat my insomnia. Because I believe the spell will work I feel better and I can sleep.
                              Most of the folks I've met or talked to tend to fall into your 5th theory, example 2. They want it to happen so bad that it does. Not because anything has actually happened, but because they THINK it has. Like when folks are told that they are being given medication to cure them from something, and it's just a placebo. But they THINK they're receiving medicine and so they get better.

                              By the same coin, one could be given sugar and told it was poison, and if they believed it, they'd develop an illness. The mind has a tremendous effect upon the body.

                              - - - Updated - - -

                              Originally posted by Aeran View Post

                              And hell, if you want to drop the labels and call a spade a spade, parapsychology pretty much is a euphemism for 'the scientific study of magic.' Of course they'd rather poke their own eyes out than suffer the embarrassment of using that term, but any difference between what they currently label 'psi phenomenon' and magic is largely semantics. The problem is that despite producing quite a hefty load of published, peer-reviewed, reproducible evidence for the phenomena they're studying, parapsychology gets the shaft from the mainstream scientific establishment because accepting their evidence means a major paradigm shift for science in particular and society in general, and those kind of things just don't happen overnight. But the field is there, and they're quietly chugging away doing some fascinating work on ESP, OBE's, psychokinesis, spiritual healing, meditation, etc etc.
                              As a friend of mine says, the 'old guard' of any establishment needs to either 1.) Retire or 2.) Die off, before any changes will be made in mainstream anything. I think this is exactly true. Whole careers and legacies are built on what are now known to be fallacies, and they won't risk those legacies whilst they're still able to maintain claim to their incorrect theories.

                              Thus, change in academia comes S L O W L Y....

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