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    Atheists and anti-theists

    When I was growing up - knowing I was pagan but stuck in a Christian system - I used to be relieved when I heard someone was atheist. It usually meant we had a good deal in common.


    I still have several atheist friends, and we're cool with each other. But lately it seems I'm seeing more and more atheists who are hostile to all theists. I've heard a lot of claims that theists' faith and experiences can be disproved because we can find parts of the brain that activate when we're having spiritual experiences.


    Here's the way I see it: we can make fact-based claims about the physical world. We cannot make fact-based claims about the otherworld. Those experiences are personal and subjective. My relationship with Osiris is beautiful, but trying to prove that he physically existed would be against the very non-corporeal nature of his being.


    I also feel we cannot disprove subjective experiences, such as those that occur in the otherworld. Yes, certain neural pathways light up when we have spiritual experiences. But why should the experiences not be genuine and valid just because we can see parts of the brain responding? Maybe we're seeing certain parts of the brain light up when a deity is present. I wouldn't try to prove that, but I don't see how anyone can disprove it.


    Have other people noticed divisions between atheists and pagans in the last few years? If so, did they have anything to do with this debate about neural activity and attempting to disprove spiritual experiences?
    OO

    Book of Spirals is my author site.
    The Sentient Hillside is my blog.
    Spiral Tree is an ezine for pagans I co-founded.

    #2
    Re: Atheists and anti-theists

    Claiming that spiritual experiences are somehow not real because a certain part of the brain becomes more active as they take place is nonsense. They're making a huge logical leap 'x part of the brain is associated with y phenomenon, therefor X part of the brain must be entirely responsible for it' with absolutely no basis in fact, it's a complete misinterpretation of the science. Which is the irony of the anti-theist crowd, they claim that all they support is the scientific method, but the reality is that they have their own set of biases and dogmas and assumptions about the world that they defend viciously, often with just as little hard evidence or logic behind them as the worst of religious assumptions.

    If you cut through the disingenuous semantics ("atheism isn't a worldview, just the lack of belief in divinity!"), the reality of the modern atheist movement which grew out of the thought of Dawkins, Hitchens, Randi etc. is that it's a highly dogmatic materialist philosophy which is in many ways comparable to a religion and which indulges in many of the tactics of organized religion they claim to fight against (dogmatism, selective evidence, appeals to authority, logical inconsistency, refusal to engage threatening ideas, bigotry etc.). I used to ascribe to this worldview before I found (irony) that it just doesn't hold up under the evidence, and I've been incredibly disappointed to watch it become more and more like the organized fundamentalist religion it claims to be trying to counter since then.

    Of course not all of them are like this, there are a lot of people who really do just lack a belief in god because they don't see the evidence for it (passive atheists - although far less of them claim the label), but the current strain of the new atheist movement (activist atheists) is mostly an aggressive backlash against the influence of organized religion which should have listened to what Nietzsche said about fighting monsters...

    Hopefully they'll realize that the dogmatic posturing is counterproductive and take a turn towards the spirit of rational inquiry and freedom of thought on which the movement claims to have been founded, we'll just have to wait and see. In the meantime, I put them in the same catagory as religious fundamentalists: their ideas aren't open to change on exposure to new arguments or evidence, so it's easier to just not bother engaging them on the subject.

    Here are a few interesting articles I came across the other day about the brain scan issue and the ridiculous extrapolations people draw from them:

    Neuroimaging is seen as the key to understanding everything we do, but, in their controversial new book, Sally Satel and Scott O Lilienfeld say this approach is misguided


    Raymond Tallis: Increasing claims for neuroscience – that it can locate jealousy or Muslim fundamentalism – are ludicrous

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      #3
      Re: Atheists and anti-theists

      I was an atheist and anti-theist. A few years ago I was on some forum or another, arguing against religion. It was by no means an intelligent argument. I was essentially calling theists crazy. A pagan girl responded simply by stating her beliefs in a calm and well reasoned manner. She didn't seem crazy at all. In fact, her beliefs made sense, and she'd been so calm in responding to my cruel accusations, it made me feel small and childish in comparison. At that point, I decided to stop arguing against faith. It wasn't my place to rant against something so subjective. After that, I studied pagan beliefs in more depth and recently began calling myself a pagan.

      I still struggle with some of the things the people on this forum have experienced, experiences I can't imagine having myself, but I no longer believe that those experiences aren't real for those that experience them. I actually find myself resentful of my inability to feel what many of you feel. As I'm sure is the case with many (but not all) atheists, there's always been an emptiness inside of me where spirituality should be. If you try to understand that when speaking to atheists, maybe you'll get somewhere with it.

      I feel I may have rambled a bit there, sorry. Just my personal journey.
      Yikes, all that cultural appropriation that used to be here tho

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        #4
        Re: Atheists and anti-theists

        Originally posted by Ouranos Ouroboros View Post
        Have other people noticed divisions between atheists and pagans in the last few years? If so, did they have anything to do with this debate about neural activity and attempting to disprove spiritual experiences?
        Actually, there are quite a few of us who identify as pagan atheists right here, on this very forum.

        If one wants to know what we think about these things, one has only to ask - it will save you a lot of time speculating.

        The neural activity thing is irrelevant to determine whether deities exist or not. ALL experience - LITERALLY ALL experience can traced to neural activity. It is the way we experience EVERYTHING, the things we all agree are real (like this pink unicorn on my lap), and the things we imagine (like Bea Arthur naked).

        If the claim is made that "if it happens in the brain, it's not real" the end conclusion would have to be that "nothing is real."

        - - - Updated - - -

        Originally posted by Quetzal View Post
        As I'm sure is the case with many (but not all) atheists, there's always been an emptiness inside of me where spirituality should be. If you try to understand that when speaking to atheists, maybe you'll get somewhere with it.
        When speaking to THIS atheist, do not take this advice!

        If you treat me as if I am in some way defective (filled with emptiness? B.S. My imagination is rich and full beyond what I imagine most people can imagine), I will consider it an insult, and treat it like one.
        Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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          #5
          Re: Atheists and anti-theists

          Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
          When speaking to THIS atheist, do not take this advice!

          If you treat me as if I am in some way defective (filled with emptiness? B.S. My imagination is rich and full beyond what I imagine most people can imagine), I will consider it an insult, and treat it like one.
          Chill out, I specifically said NOT all. I was just running on my own experience and speaking under the assumption that SOME atheists must have felt the same way I have. And I didn't say filled with emptiness, nor did I link that emptiness to a lack of imagination. Don't put words into my mouth.
          Yikes, all that cultural appropriation that used to be here tho

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Atheists and anti-theists

            Originally posted by Quetzal View Post
            Chill out, I specifically said NOT all. I was just running on my own experience and speaking under the assumption that SOME atheists must have felt the same way I have. And I didn't say filled with emptiness, nor did I link that emptiness to a lack of imagination. Don't put words into my mouth.
            The second quoted comment by Corbin is from the OP. I think you are taking his comment, about not applying how Ouranos feels to him, a bit too seriously yourself. Perhaps you should also chill out and not put words in his mouth.
            Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
            sigpic

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              #7
              Re: Atheists and anti-theists

              Originally posted by Quetzal View Post
              Chill out, I specifically said NOT all. I was just running on my own experience and speaking under the assumption that SOME atheists must have felt the same way I have. And I didn't say filled with emptiness, nor did I link that emptiness to a lack of imagination. Don't put words into my mouth.
              No need to chill. Not angry, except in the sense that (although you qualified it with "but not all") you've implied that atheism produces some sort of flaw. I wanted to correct some very bad advice by making it clear that, if you treat those who have different ideas from you as if there is some defect in them, you will eventually get swatted, and you will deserve it.
              Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                #8
                Re: Atheists and anti-theists

                Eh, I don't know that atheism produces a flaw. I think more perhaps, I'm flawed and therefore atheist. Don't take that last sentence to mean all atheists are similarly flawed, I really really just include myself in that.

                Perhaps I shouldn't have offered advice, just my own perspective...
                Yikes, all that cultural appropriation that used to be here tho

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Atheists and anti-theists

                  I'm sure in some cases atheism produces, or perhaps exacerbates a flaw, just like religion can. Some people use these things as crutches, or weapons. Some simply have a belief system of some sort.
                  sigpic
                  Can you hear me, Major Tom? I think I love you.

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                    #10
                    Re: Atheists and anti-theists

                    Originally posted by Quetzal View Post
                    Eh, I don't know that atheism produces a flaw. I think more perhaps, I'm flawed and therefore atheist. Don't take that last sentence to mean all atheists are similarly flawed, I really really just include myself in that.

                    Perhaps I shouldn't have offered advice, just my own perspective...

                    On a personal note, then, Quetzal, try this:

                    Somewhere in your head there is a switched labeled (metaphorically labeled) Believe/Disbelieve. It can be hard to locate, but, once you have, it's easy to flick it back and forth. Locate the switch, and flick it to "believe." If you feel better, leave yourself tuned to "believe."

                    Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Atheists and anti-theists

                      Although they don't really say much that hasn't already been said many times on this forum, I thought some people might be interested enough to give this a quick watch:

                      Who knows, it might even spark your interest enough to make you watch more of their videos, gamers especially should find a lot of thought-provoking discussions on their channel.

                      夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

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                        #12
                        Re: Atheists and anti-theists

                        That was a good video, Jembru!

                        Thanks for posting it.

                        Godel's Incompleteness Theorem, by the way, is actually fairly easy to understand if it's translated from symbolic logic into standard English. The idea is that every logical system contains true information which CAN NOT be proven true by using that logical system. The evidence is this sentence:

                        This sentence can not be proven to be true.

                        (Before anybody wastes any time trying to prove the sentence is true, let me point out that there is a trick involved - if you prove the sentence is true, then you've proved it is false. If you prove the sentence is false, then you have proved it is true.

                        The upshot of this is that the sentence can not be proven to be true, yet indisputably is.)
                        Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Atheists and anti-theists

                          Alright, I'm going to say something that is through my experience and my opinion. I'm not trying to offend anyone, or start an argument:

                          Through my experience of atheists, nearly all of the ones I have interacted with found that atheism was about being anti-theistic; that they needed to hate religion and/or prove that religion is "false".

                          Never have a met an atheist who actually holds the beliefs that atheism represents: That they simply do not belief in a God or the supernatural.

                          It's like a Christian having to be anti-Pagan.

                          It happens where there is a Christian that is anti-Pagan wholeheartedly... But it does not mean that every Christian has to be. The faith is not about being against another faith. Just like how atheism is not about being against religion.


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                            #14
                            Re: Atheists and anti-theists

                            An atheist who is anti theist, really isn't an atheist to me. They are butt hurt because whatever deity they believed in failed them miserably in some way.

                            Yeah, I'm so standing by my words up there.

                            An atheist who is just an atheist simply has no belief in deity.
                            The mother effen end.
                            tada!
                            Satan is my spirit animal

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                              #15
                              Re: Atheists and anti-theists

                              Originally posted by WinterTraditions View Post
                              Alright, I'm going to say something that is through my experience and my opinion.
                              One of the truly wonderful things about PF is that people can express their ideas, which are based on their experience, and balance those experiences against the experiences of others, in order to create a more true picture of reality than can be provided through one individual's experience alon

                              Don't apologize for having an opinion

                              Through my experience of atheists, nearly all of the ones I have interacted with found that atheism was about being anti-theistic; that they needed to hate religion and/or prove that religion is "false".

                              Never have a met an atheist who actually holds the beliefs that atheism represents: That they simply do not belief in a God or the supernatural.
                              Here, hopefully, you will find that things are different. We're a bunch of smarty pants, and somewhat more open minded than you may be used to
                              Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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