Ancestor Work

[thalassa]

Re: Ancestor Work

Not really heathen in practice but I wonder how many see a family egregore vice an actual family lineage that they pay homage and libations to? A concept or notion of what and how their ancestors were and the lineage of life and blood that is passed to the living, not a specific persons contributions or beliefs and practices.

I know for me as a genealogist each person is a step backwards along the line of my heritage. Yet my heritage is more than just the direct ancestors that passed the flame of life that would take presence in my physical birthing. My aunts and uncles influence and contribute to my family and carry the same ancestry yet only by action do they or did they influence me and mine. Neighbors who helped raise me and set my ethics, morals and behaviors as I grew who had no connection to my lineage via blood but are still my kith and kin in that sense of family.

All of the good, the bad and the ugly or beauty contributing to that family egregore that hides the shame and weakness even as it promotes and endorses the beauty and grandness of the family. An egregore that changes from day to day and generation to generation as it bends and twists to meet the needs of a changing world and family.

But as I said I do not claim to be a Heathen though I suppose my ancestry in part hailing from Scotland and Ireland might fall into parts of it given our family history and lore.

That is an interesting idea.

Part of my problem with ancestor veneration is that...I don't consider bloodline to be all that important in anything other than my genetic makeup for making me who I am. There are people outside my direct family (and even my extended one) that I find far more worthy of veneration. And, tbh, if you go back far enough (particularly if you go forwards on another branch), we are all pretty much related anyhow. I'd (personally) rather celebrate the better parts of humanity as a whole than be concerned with the prolificy (totally made that word up) of my predecessors. Which is why I'd be a lousy Heathen, and don't consider myself one...but yeah--I like this idea.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Ancestor Work

For me, ancestor worship has nothing to do with my spiritual practice, so this is more philosophical.

Each person is individually responsible (responsible to his/her self) for doing the acts that make up that person's life. For that reason, what one's ancestors did is irrelevant. So in this sense, no ancestor worship.

However, stories of the acts, hardships, adventures (and family vacations and trips to the zoo), of our ancestors can be inspiring, bring families together, create a sense of community, and do all sorts of good things I can't even think of right now.

In addition to this, I appreciate my ancestors, even though I don't know much about them:

They worked awful damned hard so that I would have the luxury of enjoying so many amazing things that they couldn't even have imagined, like this iPad...

So in this sense, I sort of greatly appreciate them, who ever they were.

My wife is the keeper of the family shrine, which she tends with unconscious devotion, dusting and rearranging the collection of ancestor photos and misc. objects with family stories attached to them.

[Wednesday]

Re: Ancestor Work

Across several pagan disciplines (African, Asian, European) there's a specific system for how ancestors are created, because its not just any old family member. It's the living that create Ancestors (of the venerated spiritual sort) through grieving and honoring the recently dead which elevates them to an Ancestor position. Irish Laments are an example of this, even after conversion, and a Lament was written for Jesus so that he'd be sure to be properly honored and elevated. Those in a bloodline who were horrible, immoral and unworthy of the Ancestor status weren't honored and were forgotten completely. Those whose names are forgotten but were so loved and honored that they were elevated to Ancestor status are the ones we call upon when we venerate nameless, general Ancestors.

Since we are so interconnected, one person's ancestors might tie in with another person's. But that's irrelevant because Ancestors are a specific spiritual group of people that provide assitance and command veneration, and not necessarily the entirety of a person's family line. In fact "Helgi's Bride" became a national deity to an entire land of people and not just an Ancestor to Helgi's line. I venerate my beloved dead to help them reach Ancestor status, but they aren't the only one's who are in the group: it's almost its own pantheon of remarkable people that all have been honored with the duties and responsibilities to assist the living.

[Ophidia]

Re: Ancestor Work

I really enjoyed learning about African faith while I was studying their art and I would be interested in getting into the ancestor side of things but....

I have no idea who my ancestors are. In fact, the only deceased relatives I know anything about are my maternal grandmother and my paternal great grandmothers. My maternal grandma is not someone I want anything to do with really. She was quite mean. And the paternal greats were interesting, but one died when I was very young and I only have vague memories of her and the other one I only met a time or two. I honestly can't remember any of their names. And nobody in my family talks about anyone further back than that.

I'm in your boat. For all of my interminable studying of Vodou & the rest of the African Diaspora, I don't feel like I'd ever be able to take the full plunge into initiation. I know very little about my ancestors or my ancestry. I have no proof of anything my father told me about his family. My mother's living family are not good people, and I received a lot of abuse at their hands. It turns my stomach whenever one of my sisters or cousins mentions one of my dead relatives in glowing terms. It's easy to forget how much a bastard someone was once they're dead.

I try to 'make peace' with my ancestors. I've made shrines and offerings, and said prayers of thanks and forgiveness, but I'm just paying lip service. I'm still wounded and giving them any kind of recognition, not to mention honoring their memories or giving them thanks, just leaves me cold. I've pretty much severed my connection to any member of my living family because I cannot live with the constant re-opening of old scars.

What I've found myself doing more and more is giving honor and thanks to my heroes, both living and dead. They are my spiritual ancestors, and I've gotten a lot more from them than I have from my blood.

[Optimistic discord]

Re: Ancestor Work

Hi,
Ancestor worship is often overlooked or misunderstood when people think about European historical religions/beliefs.
The act of naming a child after an ancestor was a form of worship/magic intended to gift the child with traits of that chosen ancestor ( prosperity, honesty, strength etc ) . In some cases it was believed to e possible for the ancestor to actually be reborn through the naming.
It helps that for saxons/ Scandinavians a person was more than just a body and a spirit, they had layers to their existence, as can be seen by the hazy line between life and death and the sometimes confusing nature of dead people and aelfs/alfar.

It was a very practical approach to life, and quite a comforting one

- - - Updated - - -

Grrr typing on a mobile was awful.

I think most people use some form of ancestor worship at some point, even if they are not aware they are doing it.
Keeping treasured items of loved ones gone by has always been a simple form of ancestor worship.
It was used more proactively in the past when people passed down treasured items because they hoped to pass on one of the traits of an ancestor associated with that item.

I tend to think that having spent most of my life living in a landscape sculpted to bring notice to ancestors helps understand a little what they thought. I guess its one reason why I have no problem with the concept of a person being made up traits (traits including the ephemeral body,their personal destiny and world destiny) which can be passed on. And why ancestors were often thought of as living in the land around us.

[Chessa]

Re: Ancestor Work

I've sort of wondered ever since I started reading about this- what if your ancestors don't want to be worshiped/venerated? For instance, I have a great aunt who, if she were alive today, would strongly disapprove of every spiritual decision I've made in a while, and would refuse to be honored if it was part of my heathen beliefs. And my dad has already went as far to say he doesn't want me even visiting his grave after his death. So how do I honor them while respecting their ideas?

[Rae'ya]

Re: Ancestor Work

Not really heathen in practice but I wonder how many see a family egregore vice an actual family lineage that they pay homage and libations to? A concept or notion of what and how their ancestors were and the lineage of life and blood that is passed to the living, not a specific persons contributions or beliefs and practices.

This is an interesting concept, Monsno. From what I've read, and from my Northern Tradition perspective, there are actual individual ancestors who communicate and watch over the family line. But this isn't to say that's what it's like for everyone.

Part of my problem with ancestor veneration is that...I don't consider bloodline to be all that important in anything other than my genetic makeup for making me who I am. There are people outside my direct family (and even my extended one) that I find far more worthy of veneration. And, tbh, if you go back far enough (particularly if you go forwards on another branch), we are all pretty much related anyhow. I'd (personally) rather celebrate the better parts of humanity as a whole than be concerned with the prolificy (totally made that word up) of my predecessors. Which is why I'd be a lousy Heathen, and don't consider myself one...but yeah--I like this idea.

In the Northern Tradition, ancestors can also be adopted family members, close family friends, people who have greatly inspired you or people who you otherwise have a strong connection with. I don't know if the Heathen people agree here, but we tend to feel that an ancestor doesn't have to be blood related. Family ties are a lot more complicated than blood, and this is supported by the old customs of kinship and of fostering children out to other noble families. A fosterling was considered part of the family, and your foster siblings and parents were just as important as your blood parents and siblings. The wider idea of kinship included people who were not just blood related, but who had significance to us as a family, a tribe or a partnership. We reflect this in current cultures by including those people outside our blood family who could be considered part of our spiritual family, or part of our emotional family as well. Lineage is also not restricted to blood... spiritual, knowledge or skill lineage is passed down through teachers, mentors, and those who induct us into traditions (Gardnerian covens or Reiki masters, for example). In cases where these things are key to our identities and personalities, those people are just as important as blood ancestors.

Across several pagan disciplines (African, Asian, European) there's a specific system for how ancestors are created, because its not just any old family member. It's the living that create Ancestors (of the venerated spiritual sort) through grieving and honoring the recently dead which elevates them to an Ancestor position. Irish Laments are an example of this, even after conversion, and a Lament was written for Jesus so that he'd be sure to be properly honored and elevated. Those in a bloodline who were horrible, immoral and unworthy of the Ancestor status weren't honored and were forgotten completely. Those whose names are forgotten but were so loved and honored that they were elevated to Ancestor status are the ones we call upon when we venerate nameless, general Ancestors.

I've read of specific elevation rites to bring deceased loved ones to an enlightened and peaceful state after death, but these seem to include those ancestors who were immoral or unworthy... making the unworthy worthy, so to speak. Rather than excluding them based on their lives, it aims to bring them to the same level as the others and ensure that they can be included in the ancestor veneration. I've also read of those who recruit actively helpful ancestors to help with bringing troublesome or unworthy ancestors into the fold.

I personally do not think that every single ancestor is going to be the active, helpful, watchful type. But I do think that all ancestors are worthy of being included in the group at a wider level, with only certain individuals who will take an active role. I also do think that not all ancestors even stick around in their chosen Land of the Dead, and therefore may not even exist any longer, as they have reincarnated, been absorbed into a greater whole, evolved beyond their human incarnations or otherwise disappeared from the cycle. Those ancestors are obviously not taking an active, watchful, role. But does this mean that they should be excluded completely?

Perhaps this ties back into what Monsno said about a family egregore... perhaps the veneration of the non-active ancestors creates a sort of egregore which stands in their place. So we then have active, helpful, watchful Ancestors, and the unnamed, unremembered, inactive ancestors who are represented by the family egregore.

Food for thought. And I think I'll start capitalizing the active Ancestors, because the more we get into this topic, the more it becomes clear that the active, two-way communication ones are different lol

I try to 'make peace' with my ancestors. I've made shrines and offerings, and said prayers of thanks and forgiveness, but I'm just paying lip service. I'm still wounded and giving them any kind of recognition, not to mention honoring their memories or giving them thanks, just leaves me cold. I've pretty much severed my connection to any member of my living family because I cannot live with the constant re-opening of old scars.

What I've found myself doing more and more is giving honor and thanks to my heroes, both living and dead. They are my spiritual ancestors, and I've gotten a lot more from them than I have from my blood.

I wont repeat what I said earlier in this post, but I just wanted to highlight that spiritual ancestors are just as valid as blood ones, in my opinion.

Also, if you wanted to do some sort of ancestor work, you can go back as many generations as you like, and skip those who are toxic to you. Sometimes there are Ancestors further back who will mediate, if that's what you wish, or who are happy to work to elevate the toxic ones, or who will protect you from the toxic ones and act as a buffer for any work that you do so that you don't get bothered by those who mean you harm. Having a harmful relationship with the recently deceased (or the living) doesn't necessarily mean that you can't do any sort of ancestor work at all. It's okay to skip the toxic ones.

And then of course... ancestor work isn't mandatory lol. Some ancestor workers seem to feel that it is, and that everyone should do it for their own wellbeing. I'm not sure I agree with that, though. It IS an intrinsic part of certain spiritual paths, and I think that if you exclude ancestor work then you aren't truly following said paths, but that doesn't mean that you can't take inspiration from those paths and practice what enriches your life. It's not for everyone.

- - - Updated - - -

I've sort of wondered ever since I started reading about this- what if your ancestors don't want to be worshiped/venerated? For instance, I have a great aunt who, if she were alive today, would strongly disapprove of every spiritual decision I've made in a while, and would refuse to be honored if it was part of my heathen beliefs. And my dad has already went as far to say he doesn't want me even visiting his grave after his death. So how do I honor them while respecting their ideas?

Heka and I were talking about this earlier in the thread... because there are certainly some recently deceased who may not be interested in working with you. It ties back into the more recent discussion of what makes an active, helpful Ancestor, and what is just the ancestors that are venerated (or not venerated) but who don't actually watch over you or guide you.

I guess if they are active enough to tell you that they don't want a part of it, then they are excluding themselves, aren't they?

But remember that ancestor veneration is not just a Heathen thing. There are many, many paths that include some sort of ancestor honoring... included Judeo-Christian faiths. Ancestor work doesn't have to be a blatantly pagan thing.

[Wednesday]

Re: Ancestor Work

The egregore concept in heathenry is the disir, hamingja and fylgjakona.

I suppose who someone wants to elevate is a personal choice? And no, Ancestors are not strictly benevolent. Because they are in non-life, their actions and choices can seem cruel and unfair to those of us in life. Especially if they feel a family is misbehaving or not living up to its obligations. This is attested to in several religious cultures.

- - - Updated - - -
Chessa,
I'm not literal when it comes to offerings and worship. My spiritual practice is very subtle and nuanced and wouldn't look religious to anyone on the outside. I also wouldn't want to be remembered or honored with candles, incense and chants either.

I want my kids to tell my grandkids they liked my homemade chocolate or to pass on a piece of advice they found valuable. Or just to share good memories.

Most runestones basically said "Bob was my dad. He fought this battle. He was good." Just remember these are people and they just wanted to matter for who they were and what they shared and not as one dimensional religious icons on the mantle.

[Heka]

Re: Ancestor Work

The egregore concept in heathenry is the disir, hamingja and fylgjakona.

Can you extend a bit more on these terms please? I have an idea of what disir is, and I've heard of hamingja (but don't understand it. Fylgjakona I've never heard.

Thanks

[Wednesday]

Re: Ancestor Work

Can you extend a bit more on these terms please? I have an idea of what disir is, and I've heard of hamingja (but don't understand it. Fylgjakona I've never heard.

Thanks

Hamingja is the personification of a family's luck. The disir are female guardian spirits of a family. Fylgjakona are women that accompany a person. These three terms can tend to overlap one another in definition and function but for the most part they aren't human or gods but are supernatural entities or personified concepts. The hamingja, for instance, is basically a familial thoughtform and isn't an independent being.

Eta: Sorry if my replies have seemed terse; I only have my phone to work with right now and its a bitch to type with! I'm trying to keep my replies short but if you'd like me to explain anything I've said in more detail let me know.

[Rae'ya]

Re: Ancestor Work

Wednesday, I know what that feels like! No internet on a PC pretty much forced me offline for two years because I just got so frustrated trying to type on my stupid phone. Of course... you guys have surely seen by now how much I ramble. Keeping things short and sweet doesn't come naturally to me lol.

I'll chip in to the definitions there... the fylgja is sometimes expanded beyond just the fylgjakona, depending on what your persuasion is. The fylgja (sometimes known as a fetch, which is a similar concept rather than a direct translation) is considered by some to be a part of a person's soul complex and is a sort of spirit double attached to a person. It can be protective, guiding or sent forth on errands. It appears as an animal for many people, which leads some to equate it with personal primary animal guides, though this isn't strictly correct. It most often appears for men as a woman (which is then called the fylgjakona), and is linked with the concept of a fetch-wife (or fetch-husband). Opinions vary as to whether this is strictly true, depending on whether one believes that the fylgja is a manifested part of a person or whether it is completely external to a person. The fylgja is probably one of the things that has the most varying opinions amongst Heathens and Northern Traditioners.

I actually hadn't made that connection between family hamingja and the family egregore... though I'm not sure that it directly equates to what Monsno was talking about. The family hamingja would certainly be an egregore of some sort... even the personal hamingja would. Personally I feel the disir are actual individual spirits though, rather than created egregores.

[Heka]

Re: Ancestor Work

I get you on that Wednesday! I was absolutely hating working on the iPad, I'm loving the new computer!!

So a Fylgja is almost like a familiar in some manifestations?

Where does one learn all this stuff? It's madness! haha

[Rae'ya]

Re: Ancestor Work

I get you on that Wednesday! I was absolutely hating working on the iPad, I'm loving the new computer!!

So a Fylgja is almost like a familiar in some manifestations?

Where does one learn all this stuff? It's madness! haha

Some say yes, some say no. lol. This is the conundrum that is the fylgja lol.

Personally I'm in the camp that believes the fylgja is a personified manifestation of a part of the person's soul. Not everyone actually has one, and for those that do, it's manifested form varies. For some it takes on the form of the primary animal guide (though it is not the animal guide itself... a wolf shaped fylgja is not Wolf, but a manifested part of that person which most embodies the relationship with Wolf), for others it takes on a human form. It's a part of yourself that can be sectioned off and operate semi independently. Some sources say that if the fylgja is harmed or killed, then it will do permanent damage to it's person.

Where does one learn this? Reading. Lots and lots of reading lol. I'm a bit of a bibliophile and I collect books on subjects. I read as much as I possibly can, then use what I learn to put together what makes sense. Of course, some people get more and more confused the more they read, because so much of Heathenry and the Northern Traditions is still debated. You'd be surprised how many things are actually not universally agreed upon. lol

[Heka]

Re: Ancestor Work

Yeah I get reading, but reading what? This is what I admire about christianity and islam - there is only one book!

[Rae'ya]

Re: Ancestor Work

Yeah I get reading, but reading what? This is what I admire about christianity and islam - there is only one book!

Any book you can find on Heathenry, Asatru or the Northern Tradition... plus the Poetic and Prose Edda, the Icelandic Sagas and authors such as Hilda Ellis Davidson... then websites, blogs and forums.

I actually count tertiary sources such as modern Heathen authors as important too. Sometimes the personal experience and UPG of others can lead to understanding that you wouldn't get from academia and ancient texts. As a non recon I've read more tertiary resources than primary and probably gotten more from them.