Unverified Personal Gnosis

[Heka]

Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

Random thought on UPG - I think Christianity has too much of it. That great video Dumuzi posted about the Aussie turned Muslim, he struggled to find a Christian group that would use the Bible for evidence, everyone was giving their 'opinion'. That's why there are so many sects of Christianity. It's not always a bad thing, but in general, I think Christian practitioners rely too much on UPG and opinion.

[Malflick]

Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

Random thought on UPG - I think Christianity has too much of it. That great video Dumuzi posted about the Aussie turned Muslim, he struggled to find a Christian group that would use the Bible for evidence, everyone was giving their 'opinion'. That's why there are so many sects of Christianity. It's not always a bad thing, but in general, I think Christian practitioners rely too much on UPG and opinion.

I disagree. I think they rely way too much on using the Bible to make whatever argument they want to, and using it as a crutch, and should have more UPG. If there were more Christians getting a closer relationship with YHWH, and less using the Bible as a arguing tool, I think we'd be doing way better as a religion.

[Heka]

Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

Perhaps it's more they interpretations they take from the Bible - in my experience they can be sooo different from each other, and so far removed from what message I thought there was there.

[Malflick]

Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

Perhaps it's more they interpretations they take from the Bible - in my experience they can be sooo different from each other, and so far removed from what message I thought there was there.

In all fairness, the message you thought was there is your own opinion on what the message is.

Though obviously I myself disagree with many a Christian on large swaths of interpretation :P.... So I'm very different from most other Christians myself. I guess I am part of the problem as you see it .

[Heka]

Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

Maybe my definition of UPG ain't quite right, I kinda consider it to include peoples interpretation of things... That's where my points are coming from on this, is that not quite correct?

And you're not a problem Mal!

[Malflick]

Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

Maybe my definition of UPG ain't quite right, I kinda consider it to include peoples interpretation of things... That's where my points are coming from on this, is that not quite correct?

And you're not a problem Mal!

If it was based on an interpretation, it would be verifiable in some way. Its in fact the opposite of using a text to make a religious judgement, its using a personal experience (an "unverified person gnosis", in fact) to make one. Which hopefully I wrote out clearly, I shouldn't even still be awake X_X...


HAVE SOME LINKS 8D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unverified_personal_gnosis

http://altreligion.about.com/od/glossary/g/UPG.htm

[Heka]

Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

Then it's their verifying that is skewif! Cheers for links! As I said, I ain't never done this UPG thing before... LEARNING!

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Hey I own Kaatryn MacMorgan's book - I had never heard of UPG before, clearly I didn't read that book well enough... *sigh*

[thalassa]

Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

If one has a perspective that is based upon their own conclusions and beliefs then I totally agree its all UPG. If it's based upon a collective opinion of something then i'm not sure its still UPG but a collective mindset. Not sure what you would call it but its not UPG, perhaps more of a SPG I suppose.

I tend to think that SPG is a bunch of individual UPG's that came together...I'm sure, more often than not, there are people out there that see a group's SPG and says (to themselves) "wait up, that's not what I experienced!" but stay silent because everyone else is having this other experience (or go out and start their own thing somewhere else). I also think that one reason for UPG's aligning with one another is the similarity in the culture and in the symbolism that people with like interests are familiar with. But ultimately, I think that all religions start with UPG, and that they change in the same way.

...which is really just my UPG (and I read this book once, which sort of led me in that direction)

[Lokabrenna]

Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

Lately I've been finding that the lore is, at best, tangential to what I do. I am not a reconstructionist, and I'm also solitary, so what I do spiritually is really no one's business but my own. I find myself mostly in agreement with this article: http://witchesandpagans.com/Pagan-St...ed-notion.html

Don't get me wrong, the lore can be useful, but it's been my experience that some people get so caught up in studying teh lore (and, at times, beating others over the head with it) that it detracts from actually honouring one's deities. This isn't the case ALL the time, by any means, but sometimes it seems some are more focused on making sure they're Right than actually practicing a religion.

[thalassa]

Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

Lately I've been finding that the lore is, at best, tangential to what I do. I am not a reconstructionist, and I'm also solitary, so what I do spiritually is really no one's business but my own. I find myself mostly in agreement with this article: http://witchesandpagans.com/Pagan-St...ed-notion.html

Yeah, I think a good number of people took that post really personally....I don't think it meant half of what people read it to mean. if you browse through the comments.

But anyhoo...I see information (and I consider lore to be information) as a starting point, and nothing more....its not the destination, its just a place (not even the place) to start the journey from.

[Ula]

Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

Considering that most of the Germanic/Norse lore was written by Christians I consider UPG important. Next, archaeology, then lore.

[Ukiuq]

Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

My UPG is still small and budding, but I do believe it's there. Since my primary sources are tattered books long out of print and the writings of my grandmother, who was Christian and viewed everything she was recording as mere stories, my beliefs are still, after a year of research, forming. It's hard to know what your UPG is when you can't nail down what you're sure is the lore.

[Bjorn]

Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't EVERYTHING we experience in the realm of spirituality, ceremony, practice, and ritual UPG? I mean, I know what I do and do not believe and therefore the experiences I have are going to slip nicely into the open slots I have reserved for them. Therefore, we are only ever going to receive what we have made room for in the first place, making every experience utterly subjective.

[Yazichestvo]

Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

UPG is fine, but I tend to be very tentative about a single person's experiences. Lore is potentially the collective personal gnosis of hundreds of generations, so naturally I tend to value it above most modern individual UPG.

It's a good thing if your UPG agrees with the lore, of course, because that means your experience is in partial agreement with what the bulk of available information says. That said, this is all very theoretical for me, because I'm generally not a "vision" type of person, and tend toward research.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

Maybe my definition of UPG ain't quite right, I kinda consider it to include peoples interpretation of things... That's where my points are coming from on this, is that not quite correct?

And you're not a problem Mal!

To a degree I do agree that UPG also includes peoples interpretations of things. Unfortunately a lot of interpretations may be arrived at without the proper background or knowledge to read or judge something against scholarly or historical works. Then one has to factor in that even scholarly works and background knowledge has changed from period to period and what was assumed in that given period. Also consider that the mindset has also changed in regards to how critical thinking and judgement is applied as to whether it is an argument for or against a thing and what knowledge is presumed to be held by the reader.

Unfortunately I think many people read material and view it in such a mindset as to read it so it supports their UPG. I have to admit I am equally guilty of that for whatever reason being it a refusal to accept it any other way to having a poor knowledge of what the source material was actually suggesting or presenting to support the authors conclusions and evidence.

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I tend to think that SPG is a bunch of individual UPG's that came together...I'm sure, more often than not, there are people out there that see a group's SPG and says (to themselves) "wait up, that's not what I experienced!" but stay silent because everyone else is having this other experience (or go out and start their own thing somewhere else). I also think that one reason for UPG's aligning with one another is the similarity in the culture and in the symbolism that people with like interests are familiar with. But ultimately, I think that all religions start with UPG, and that they change in the same way.

...which is really just my UPG (and I read this book once, which sort of led me in that direction)

Bolded mine,

I very much agree with the bolded section. Culture possibly being either the actual culture they live in or the culture they are introduced to in researching the history and mythology of a given god / goddess or people. The psychological picture that is created very similar to such a degree that it seems logical for them to arrive at the same conclusions when material is missing.

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Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't EVERYTHING we experience in the realm of spirituality, ceremony, practice, and ritual UPG? I mean, I know what I do and do not believe and therefore the experiences I have are going to slip nicely into the open slots I have reserved for them. Therefore, we are only ever going to receive what we have made room for in the first place, making every experience utterly subjective.

I think your getting into the difference between the spiritual / mystical aspect of a practice and the religious dogma and structure of a practice here. The dogma and structure very much focused upon creating the opportunity and structure for something to happen which allows the practitioner to experience the mystical / spiritual aspect of it on an individual level. What the practitioner feels, senses, experiences very much similar yet very much different from others who undergo the same conditioning and structure as it is personal. Yet the symbology, meanings, suggestions maybe so close as to allow others to relate or empathize with what the individual experienced though they can not experience it exactly as each other.

I disagree that we'll only receive what we've made room for. All the conditioning and guidance in the world can not ensure you will not experience something entirely outside of the parameters of what you anticipated. Nor can we account for every conceivable outcome thus anticipate or prepare for what maybe experienced. Like a car upon the road we can anticipate what we perceive to be expected or normal action from other drivers but can never prepare for the unexpected actions that may be encountered due to their actions / reactions.

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UPG is fine, but I tend to be very tentative about a single person's experiences. Lore is potentially the collective personal gnosis of hundreds of generations, so naturally I tend to value it above most modern individual UPG.

It's a good thing if your UPG agrees with the lore, of course, because that means your experience is in partial agreement with what the bulk of available information says. That said, this is all very theoretical for me, because I'm generally not a "vision" type of person, and tend toward research.

BOlded mine

I think the bolded part touches upon one disadvantage of using the lore. The lore changes over time for what ever reason or purpose so ones UPG may or maynot support anything other than a given political / social outlook of a given time frame.

For instance consider the story of the Rape of Persephone. In the earliest accounts Hecate / Hekate is not even found in the story but is added in later additions. One then has to guess why she becomes needed in the story and what her role in the social / political mindset of the time suggests. If one looks to the early paintings and such you often find Demeter outside the cavern, Persephone reaching up to her mother and Hermes in front of her as he leads her out. No Hecate presence at all yet one could also view the picture as being what Hecate is seeing before her as using torches would assume she was behind Persephone to light her way vice blind her by being in front of her.

From that aspect the inclusion of Hecate / Hekate does nothing to support her role as a goddess of witches as she is painted today. However, it does support the role she had in transition that was occurring when her influence was taking a split with one part going into the Dark Mistress aspect and the other going into the Chaldean aspect with her guiding and influencing people through the usage of daemons and such. A role that comes to fruition from about 1 BCE to 2nd or 3rd century AD. Yet it also fits in nicely when one considers the story of Medea and Jason coming back into Greece and her acceptance as a foreign princess and the things associated with her prior to her killing her children for revenge.

But then one has to decide what time frame their UPG is supporting and whether it is inclusive or time restricted to a given period one is focused upon in my opinion.