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    DEBATE! Unverified Personal Gnosis

    I felt like stirring the pot this afternoon

    How important is personal gnosis to your path?

    Do you feel there is a lot of stigma attached to 'unverified' or 'unsubstantiated' personal gnosis in your path? Why do you think there's so much bias, or do you think there's not enough bias? How does it affect you and how you worship?

    Have any good UPGs that you'd like to share, or any wacky UPGs that other people have shared with you? That's another good question - what makes one person's UPG valid, but another person's UPG wacky or outlandish?


    I used to share a lot of my truly deep spiritual experiences. As I became more exposed to the online world of Paganism and religion in general, I've gotten a lot more private over the years. There's always going to be someone who disagrees with a person, or their experiences, but I see a lot of outright bashing and abuse online. I've even been subjected to some of it. I'm experienced enough both as a Pagan and a human to not let anyone else shake the foundations of my own spirituality overly much but I see a lot of new Pagans run for the hills and give up on everything they've just found because of mistreatment.

    I'm not a full Greco-Roman recon, nor do I claim to be - most of my work with those deities has been on a purely personal level. I have no sources for it, other than similar experiences shared with me by other people. Same with my own 'native' American (meaning, working with spirits of wherever I'm living here in the US) work. I can understand anyone's distaste for misappropriation, but it doesn't negate honest experiences had by people communicating with or venerating native spiritual entities, wherever they may live. A lot of my personal cosmology is built up from UPG - but at least with my cosmology I can throw out some source material to offset the 'unverified' stigma.
    The forum member formerly known as perzephone. Or Perze. I've shed a skin.

    #2
    Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

    I think I'm pretty lucky that the majority of my UPG is usually fairly well supported by lore, and if it's not directly supported, it's at least logically consistent enough to draw those lines.

    I'm interested to see how this thread develops. On personal note, as humans we get a very limited amount of understanding of how the universe is shaped and by that logic I don't discredit anyone else's experiences. Although I have been known to raise an eyebrow or two whenever I hear someone claiming to be Lilith reincarnated.

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

      In the Alchemy I practice, UPG is 98% of everything. The whole point of is to achieve gnosis.

      Since everybody is different, and everybody has a different relationship to everything, I would expect everybody to have an experience of gnosis which is different, and also deeply personal.

      I'm pretty pragmatic - a person's personal gnosis can only be judged by the effect it has on that person, and on that person's life. If a person's life is improved, I'd call it valid. If it harms a Preston's life then it's junk, valid or not.
      Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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        #4
        Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

        *rolls up his sleaves*

        I'm more than happy to pin my colours to my shirt , I think UPG is an important part of all religions, all spiritual paths.
        I would go even further and say that I think paganism today needs to accept UPG a lot more or it will continue to splinter and continue to intimidate newcomers.

        I say this because CG is too reliant on "lore" that comes to us via mangled translations , texts read totaly out of context of the time/politics / cultures they were written in.

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

          Originally posted by Ljubezen View Post
          I think I'm pretty lucky that the majority of my UPG is usually fairly well supported by lore
          I'm an atheist. To me, that means 'made up'. Can you expand on what lore means to you?

          I don't mean to be disrespectful. But my atheism means I do not believe in lore, myth, etc.
          Satan is my spirit animal

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

            I think UPG can be a good thing but it can also be a horrible crutch that allows fantasy to take hold or become justification for anything. Even to the point of saying pink unicorns are the favorite creature of such and such a goddess. I'm not jesting there as I have heard such or similar fantasy suggestions to support outlandish beliefs justified because it was UPG. Many times being used to justify no actual research or poor research or scholarly works that might otherwise be found to verify a notion or entirely disprove such.

            It's like it's very much UPG on my part in regards to Hecate / Hekate being closely associated to the coastal waters and its creature's vice the deep oceans. Yet it is also SPG (Shared Personal Gnosis) in that other followers of Hecate / Hekate who work with her water aspect have arrived at the same conclusions and perspectives. When we compare our individual UPG the similarities are so close as to suggest a truth that is not conveyed in the archaic works which deal with her.

            Granted somethings will always be UPG and serve to enhance the practitioners beliefs or logic, never being probable at all. That in and of itself does not make it wrong as it is the leap of faith that enables the person to arrive at a conclusion that otherwise may not have been obtainable. For me it doesn't become a weakness until one stops asking about its truth and force fits it into their practice. When they can not make a logical argument as to its worth and merit before a logical argument that challenges it.
            I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

              I don't have anything personal to share just yet... But I did fine an interesting blog(?) post about UPG:



              Comment


                #8
                Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

                Originally posted by Medusa View Post
                I'm an atheist. To me, that means 'made up'. Can you expand on what lore means to you?

                I don't mean to be disrespectful. But my atheism means I do not believe in lore, myth, etc.

                I'm not atheist and I have no interest in defending my experiences to others. It doesn't really work to do so. If you don't believe in lore or myth, then you don't.

                But I don't understand what you mean when you say "what lore means to me." Lore are stories, songs, that have been passed down through the ages. Sometimes they're a description, sometimes a moral, sometimes simply a story. So what is it you're looking for in my answer exactly?

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

                  Originally posted by Ljubezen View Post
                  I'm not atheist and I have no interest in defending my experiences to others. It doesn't really work to do so. If you don't believe in lore or myth, then you don't.

                  But I don't understand what you mean when you say "what lore means to me." Lore are stories, songs, that have been passed down through the ages. Sometimes they're a description, sometimes a moral, sometimes simply a story. So what is it you're looking for in my answer exactly?
                  I know what lore means. I just found it odd when you said:
                  I think I'm pretty lucky that the majority of my UPG is usually fairly well supported by lore,
                  I wasn't sure if you meant you were lucky in the fact that others before you through history have had the same belief as you, so it made you feel more comfortable following it. Or lucky as in, lore past through the ages = fact.
                  I'm not asking you to defend your religion. I'm never interested in the actual religion of people since I don't believe in deities. But I do find it interesting the reasoning behind the beliefs. And I always find it interesting(especially in Paganism in general) if people actually believe in the deities or just like the comfort it gives them. That's all.

                  Please don't take offense. I'm not questioning your religion. I don't need to since I don't believe in it. I'm just curious as to how your minds works in regards to your religion(you as in all the people that post, I'm always curious) that's all.
                  Satan is my spirit animal

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

                    I'm very open minded when it comes to religion and different paths. As in I believe most deities all around the world exist, I believe there are many different ways to reach them, I believe that possibly thousands of afterlifes could exist. So UPG does not bother me.
                    White and Red 'till I'm cold and dead.
                    sigpic
                    In Days of yore,
                    From Britain's shore
                    Wolfe the dauntless hero came
                    And planted firm Britannia's flag
                    On Canada's fair domain.
                    Here may it wave,
                    Our boast, our pride
                    And joined in love together,
                    The thistle, shamrock, rose entwined,
                    The Maple Leaf Forever.

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                      #11
                      Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

                      Originally posted by Medusa View Post
                      I know what lore means. I just found it odd when you said:

                      I wasn't sure if you meant you were lucky in the fact that others before you through history have had the same belief as you, so it made you feel more comfortable following it. Or lucky as in, lore past through the ages = fact.
                      I'm not asking you to defend your religion. I'm never interested in the actual religion of people since I don't believe in deities. But I do find it interesting the reasoning behind the beliefs. And I always find it interesting(especially in Paganism in general) if people actually believe in the deities or just like the comfort it gives them. That's all.

                      Please don't take offense. I'm not questioning your religion. I don't need to since I don't believe in it. I'm just curious as to how your minds works in regards to your religion(you as in all the people that post, I'm always curious) that's all.
                      I didn't take it as offense, I just got confused. :P But that makes more sense.

                      So, for example. Let's take Veles- god of livestock and the underworld, takes the form of a serpent or a dragon while fighting the thunder god. He may come to my mind as a serpent, as a bull, as simply a presence, but definitely not as hello kitty.

                      I've known some people whose UPG just seems like it almost directly contradicts any of the myths or tales, but I've never really had an experience where a spirit has made its presence known and given me a name or identity that simply doesn't fit in any context whatsoever. With that, I've never really had to fret too much about whether my UPG was wrong or delusional because it doesn't line up with external sources.

                      I hope that makes sense?

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

                        Yes yes. Makes sense. Thank you
                        Satan is my spirit animal

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

                          I'm totally Satan's younger child. But I partially have Azazel's blood. And I could also be half reptilian.

                          Now, in all seriousness, I find my own UPG more trustworthy than things that have been written, translated and probably reinterpreted during the process. I've spoke to some entities and asked them a lot of everything.

                          Check out my blog! The Daily Satanist

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

                            Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
                            I think UPG can be a good thing but it can also be a horrible crutch that allows fantasy to take hold or become justification for anything. Even to the point of saying pink unicorns are the favorite creature of such and such a goddess. I'm not jesting there as I have heard such or similar fantasy suggestions to support outlandish beliefs justified because it was UPG. Many times being used to justify no actual research or poor research or scholarly works that might otherwise be found to verify a notion or entirely disprove such.
                            I feel this so often, really you said the words in my brain.
                            That said, UPG is very important, I think it ias a massive part of my practice, but sometimes the things people say about the very same god/esses I worship makes me cringe. There should be some level of personal experience definitely, without that it is almost crazily dogmatic, without proper old lore to use anyway, so much of it is incomplete. The happy fluffy fairy riding a pink unicorn though, may not be the goddess you are trying to make her...
                            http://catcrowsnow.blogspot.com/

                            But they were doughnuts of darkness. Evil damned doughnuts, tainted by the spawn of darkness.... Which could obviously only be redeemed by passing through the fiery inferno of my digestive tract.
                            ~Jim Butcher

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

                              Originally posted by SeanRave View Post
                              ..Now, in all seriousness, I find my own UPG more trustworthy than things that have been written, translated and probably reinterpreted during the process. I've spoke to some entities and asked them a lot of everything.
                              Not entirely the same thing but I find my own UPG in regards to what a thing or creature means far better than what I find recorded in most books or by other practitioners as a general rule. Even the usage of color works much the same for me as I tend not to see things the same way. I suppose even the notion of sacred directions or elemental layout differs.
                              I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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