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    #16
    Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

    Contextual understanding of transcribed lore is a big thing for me, I helped set up a regular but small moot ( only 18 or so people ) of people interested in understanding and practicing "heathen" based spirituality.
    Quite quickly it became clear that some individuals took the eddas and prose as a form of gospel to reinforce the common perception of northern European paganism.
    They refused any SPG or UPG as fantasy as they expected all such interactions to be backed by word and verse.
    They had no room in their understanding for any form of context , or really wanted to accept anything beyond Odinist ideals.

    Even when its quite clear such ideals were not the entire regional norm.

    I have heard some crazy UPG but in most cases just the act of supporting and talking with the person about their experience, getting them to find out why their experience was different can hae "filter " changing effects on their later experiences... Or possibly yours ;-)

    In the past there would of been a family and village information and support network to do just that, I believe the solitary pagan as we tend to mostly start with now is an alien concept. People would of started off immersed in their particular faith from birth and would to a degree all have synchronised "filters".

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      #17
      Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

      Originally posted by perzephone View Post
      How important is personal gnosis to your path?
      It's very important to my path. My own personal gnosis, plus that of my peers, makes up a large chunk of my path, and I think the paths of most Northern Traditioners (vs recon Heathens). I would go so far as to say that I put more importance on Peer-Corroborated or Shared Gnosis that I do on ancient Lore.

      Having said that, I always check my UPG and that of others. Because there's always the possibility that I did just have a deluded hallucination, or got caught up in my own ego. So every new piece of UPG gets filtered through a system of 'does this make sense'? and 'have I just directly contradicted what a large portion of other people are experiencing?' I don't go to the extent of triple checking everything with divination, or running off to check my peers' blogs to see if they thought the same thing, but you have to be careful of falling into the trap of thinking that everything is 'true' just because it passed through someone's thoughts.

      For example... if I or someone else suddenly had the thought that Frigg's favourite colour was fluorescent orange, I may want to sit on that info for a few days and then go and ask her. Chances are it's not true lol.

      I think that keeping that in the back of your mind develops a sort of automatic checker system... you get this little red flag that pops up when something a bit weird pops up, and that tells you to go check it out and make an informed decision rather than taking something on blind faith. There's a balance you have to reach.

      Originally posted by perzephone View Post
      Do you feel there is a lot of stigma attached to 'unverified' or 'unsubstantiated' personal gnosis in your path? Why do you think there's so much bias, or do you think there's not enough bias? How does it affect you and how you worship?
      My experience is that the Northern Tradition folk tend to be very accepting and trusting of UPG and PCPG/SPG, while the recon Heathen folk not so much. I'm cautious of generalising here, because there are plenty of Heathen folk who value UPG... but I've been in forums and blogs where people's posts have been ripped apart, vilified and degraded. I've seen Heathens who refuse to accept anything that is not traceable to a primary source, and actively grind a person into the ground to prove their point.

      It most definitely makes you cautious of talking about your faith... it makes you lurk a bit and check out what a community of Heathens are like before you start putting your ideas out there. I've evolved past that point now, and I am confident enough in my experiences to ignore those people. But when you're new it's very scary. I was actually really happy to see that PF has a large number of accepting Heathens and even some other NT people... it's definitely a nice change. It doesn't affect my worship or my faith, but it does make me more inclined to skip a community because I can't be bothered dealing with the narrow minded bullies.

      It's one thing to feel that UPG is not valid. It's quite another to actively vilify and degrade someone because of their faith in UPG.

      Originally posted by perzephone View Post
      That's another good question - what makes one person's UPG valid, but another person's UPG wacky or outlandish?
      Whether or not it makes sense. Even the most profound spiritual experiences still have to make sense and not directly contradict everyone else. I'm not actually bothered by contradictions, because sometimes simple misunderstandings make it into common knowledge... with the advent of the internet especially, you sometimes end up with misinformation being the norm. So a contradiction in and of itself is not a deal breaker for me. But there still has to be a logical and sensical connection for me to feel that a UPG is valid.

      I am sworn to Skuld, and so I have a close relationship with Her and know Her at a level that others don't. If someone told me that Her favourite animal was pink unicorns, I would think they are deluded, because I know Skuld and I know what She's like. I'm fairly certain that others would back me up on that one. Some of my own UPG about Her and the other Nornir are things that I've never read anywhere else, but they make sense and they fit into the personality, mythology and history of the Nornir as well as being things that They themselves have told me. So I believe in those things 100%.

      At the end of the day UPG and it's supported cousins are complex. People sometimes think it's as simple as 'do whatever works for you, and everything you think must be true, because everyone's Truth is different'... but I don't think it works like that.

      Edited to fix one of the quote codes.

      - - - Updated - - -

      It occurs to me that I should also mention something about the Demonolatry community and UPG... there it's a little different and it depends on which Demonolators you're talking to. The community is quite small, and many of the prominent figures are traditional or generational (which means their families have been practicing it for hundreds of years and they have old family grimoires etc etc). For them, the UPG of their great great grandfathers is The Law, but modern UPG is looked at a bit askance. For example, the entirety of the Dukante hierarchy is pretty much the UPG of one man, and huge chunks of it can't be confirmed with other texts, and yet it's taken as gospel.

      The basic attitude amongst them is a bit different, as many Demonolators are Ceremonial rather than neo-pagan. Valid UPG to them is based on a more rational, logical, verifiable system. Thinking outside the box, while not vilified, is put through a rigorous testing before it's accepted. The community as a whole is a little cliquey, and that will also determine how well your UPG is accepted. That's actually why you see very few Demonolators outside of their own forums... they say it's because they practice 'in real life' and don't have time for the internet, but the reality is that they just prefer to stick to their own community and ignore everyone else. It's weird... I classify myself and my husband as Demonolators and yet I talk about them as though they are a completely external group of people... that's because we didn't like the cliquey nature of the community and so don't engage much anymore.

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        #18
        Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

        I know I may get major flack for my thoughts on this matter. What seems a common factor in most ALL beliefs about the "Higher power" concept is many of the traits we we cloth our deity's with mainly reflect our own human faults and frailty's.
        If we conceive of a being that is all knowing and all seeing,and having in many ways no real physical "Body" then how could we decide that a "God" is effected by anger,or jealousy(My god is a jealous god) or all the things that define the human condition. Do we in fact attempt to create body and image of this "Power" to fit our own reflection. My personal connection with a "Higher power" could not expect the "power" to be as afflicted with emotional effects that seem to plague human interaction with one another. If indeed I seek to be connected with a "Higher power" I would hope that my connection helps me to rise above these afflictions of the flesh that we humans must contend with in our lives. Really,is not our attempt to connect with a "Power" an effort to find a better path than the one our human existence seems to trap us in?
        MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

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          #19
          Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

          Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
          For example... if I or someone else suddenly had the thought that Frigg's favourite colour was fluorescent orange, I may want to sit on that info for a few days and then go and ask her. Chances are it's not true lol.
          ^ This as a perfect example, and reading through this thread made me think about how normal it is for people to re-interpret and misinterpret things, then pass them along. Look to the mainstream and what has happened in Christianity - there are literally thousands of denominations of Protestantism alone. In my lifetime alone there have been many changes - the right-wing/Republican party connection, etc. Remember the kid's game of whispering into someone's ear, and by the time it gets around the room, it's a different sentence? Hence the path of lore.
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            #20
            Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

            Originally posted by Hawkfeathers View Post
            Remember the kid's game of whispering into someone's ear, and by the time it gets around the room, it's a different sentence?
            Isn't that game called "Telephone"? I never liked the game, especially as an 'experiment' of words changing with each person... Because there is always a kid who will change it to something entirely different on purpose.

            However, if the game is played with an entire room, those that have heard the right message can quickly correct the person that made the so-called 'error'.


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              #21
              Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

              Originally posted by WinterTraditions View Post
              Isn't that game called "Telephone"? I never liked the game, especially as an 'experiment' of words changing with each person... Because there is always a kid who will change it to something entirely different on purpose.

              However, if the game is played with an entire room, those that have heard the right message can quickly correct the person that made the so-called 'error'.
              Yes, and you made a great analogy to what "large groups looking for money and control" can/will do, and how eventually someone says "Hey, that's not right".

              Personally, on my spiritual, social, financial, political etc. paths, I have always questioned everything and been my own advocate. So, while I don't fit in with other groups really well, I feel like I fit in to the universe just fine.
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              Can you hear me, Major Tom? I think I love you.

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                #22
                Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

                Originally posted by Maria de Luna View Post
                I feel this so often, really you said the words in my brain.
                That said, UPG is very important, I think it ias a massive part of my practice, but sometimes the things people say about the very same god/esses I worship makes me cringe. There should be some level of personal experience definitely, without that it is almost crazily dogmatic, without proper old lore to use anyway, so much of it is incomplete. The happy fluffy fairy riding a pink unicorn though, may not be the goddess you are trying to make her...
                I should probably expand on this a bit as it seems kind of ranty now that I am reading it again...
                I don't mind UPG I find it quite important, and in some cases even nessecary as translations of old texts written after the christianization of a region are not a proper gospel, and shouldn't be. But some things, just don't fit. Much of my own problem comes from a focus within Celtic paganism, which has been mussed with by different movements for many years, there is so much gunk spread around on the internet nd everywhere that paints quite odd pictures of many gods and goddesses, there are those who have been stuffed into fit a certain preconcieved notion, and many people take this as a bible, and it is crazy. That is really what drives me nuts, not so much UPG itself but basing a religion on the stuff in your head has to be tempered by something, even if just vaguely.
                http://catcrowsnow.blogspot.com/

                But they were doughnuts of darkness. Evil damned doughnuts, tainted by the spawn of darkness.... Which could obviously only be redeemed by passing through the fiery inferno of my digestive tract.
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                  #23
                  Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

                  I honestly don't have much experience in regard to UPG etc. I'm still developing in terms of practice and communication etc. But I'm finding things that make sense to me, that are logical to me (I was bought up on science, I can't just 'believe' without justifying it first). I'm slowly finding things that make sense to me, but these tend to be pretty pre-conceived, or a part of lore. But I'm ok with that. For now, I'm gonna take-take-take whatever feels right and slowly develop myself.

                  I look forward to some UPG in the future

                  In terms of other people, sometimes I am so skeptical... It ain't logical to me, but I'm forcing myself to be more open minded, I've only just reentered the community, and UPG wasn't a term used back when I started (well not around me). But I cannot call out other peoples UPG because that is their experience, and while I'm skeptical, it isn't me. I can't call it.
                  ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic

                  RIP

                  I have never been across the way
                  Seen the desert and the birds
                  You cut your hair short
                  Like a shush to an insult
                  The world had been yelling
                  Since the day you were born
                  Revolting with anger
                  While it smiled like it was cute
                  That everything was shit.

                  - J. Wylder

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                    #24
                    Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

                    Originally posted by Medusa View Post
                    I know what lore means. I just found it odd when you said:

                    I wasn't sure if you meant you were lucky in the fact that others before you through history have had the same belief as you, so it made you feel more comfortable following it. Or lucky as in, lore past through the ages = fact.
                    I'm not asking you to defend your religion. I'm never interested in the actual religion of people since I don't believe in deities. But I do find it interesting the reasoning behind the beliefs. And I always find it interesting(especially in Paganism in general) if people actually believe in the deities or just like the comfort it gives them. That's all.

                    Please don't take offense. I'm not questioning your religion. I don't need to since I don't believe in it. I'm just curious as to how your minds works in regards to your religion(you as in all the people that post, I'm always curious) that's all.
                    No worries. I never would have pegged you for being intolerant in the first place. ^^

                    I don't tend to look at lore as absolute fact (although sometimes I would like to believe it was- earth in orbit around giant fish that cause earthquakes? yes please.) But I do believe in the actual deities of my pantheon. Stories always seem to only give a limited window of insight.

                    At any rate, ghosting this thread to see how others respond.

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                      #25
                      Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

                      Originally posted by perzephone View Post
                      How important is personal gnosis to your path?
                      I would say that it is pretty important. I'm not a <enter tradition here>...my practice is entirely built upon my bioregion, and my experiences within it. This means that its pretty unique. That doesn't mean that everything is just made up or anything, but rather that information is the starting point and not the destination. Mirroring what someone else believes and how they believe it isn't my goal--my goal is my own personal relationship with the land, via Deity.

                      Do you feel there is a lot of stigma attached to 'unverified' or 'unsubstantiated' personal gnosis in your path? Why do you think there's so much bias, or do you think there's not enough bias? How does it affect you and how you worship?
                      Since its a path of one, not really. In the wider Paganisms? There can be, particularly in certain corners. Personally, I'm of the opinion that ALL religions are UPG...which has been corroberated by virtue of shared experieces over time. And because I don't think those experiences occur in a vaccum (but rather a culturally determined lense), I'm not inclined to put an more emphasis on shared gnosis versus personal gnosis.

                      Have any good UPGs that you'd like to share, or any wacky UPGs that other people have shared with you? That's another good question - what makes one person's UPG valid, but another person's UPG wacky or outlandish?
                      I once saw a guy asking "the goddess" to direct him to the edible plants in the woods. I'm all for meditating on a particular plant, to speaking to it about one's intentions, to listening to it for inspiration...............but, at the end of the day (survivial experiences as the exception), if I can't identify it, I'm not eating it. That's just dumb.

                      I was going to say that when something passes the bounds of good taste, of common sense, of a certain logic....but...I think this falls unto the Potter Stewart definition of porn--I know it when I see it. Its really hard to say "THIS! This is the line!" because there are too many exceptions.

                      Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
                      It's like it's very much UPG on my part in regards to Hecate / Hekate being closely associated to the coastal waters and its creature's vice the deep oceans. Yet it is also SPG (Shared Personal Gnosis) in that other followers of Hecate / Hekate who work with her water aspect have arrived at the same conclusions and perspectives. When we compare our individual UPG the similarities are so close as to suggest a truth that is not conveyed in the archaic works which deal with her.
                      I work extensively with my own coastal region...I've never felt compelled to look towards Hecate, but this is quite interesting!

                      Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                      My experience is that the Northern Tradition folk tend to be very accepting and trusting of UPG and PCPG/SPG, while the recon Heathen folk not so much. I'm cautious of generalising here, because there are plenty of Heathen folk who value UPG... but I've been in forums and blogs where people's posts have been ripped apart, vilified and degraded. I've seen Heathens who refuse to accept anything that is not traceable to a primary source, and actively grind a person into the ground to prove their point.
                      (snip)
                      It's one thing to feel that UPG is not valid. It's quite another to actively vilify and degrade someone because of their faith in UPG.
                      THIS!

                      Although, I want to address the idea of validity. I would change one thing about your statement--I would exchange the word authentic for valid, and to explain why, I have a snippet of an article written for the ADF comparing themselves with the OBOD (these are two Druid groups, for anyone that isn't familiar with the acronyms):
                      In a study of the remarkable shamanic forgeries of Carlos Castaneda, anthropologist Richard de Mille has pointed out that there are at least two different kinds of truth at work in discussions of spiritual traditions. First is authenticity: does the tradition come from where the author or teacher says it comes from? Are the claims the author or teacher makes historically or anthropologically accurate? This is one obvious form of truth, yet as de Mille points out, it must not be mistaken for the whole. There is also validity: is the tradition effective? Does it accomplish what it says it can accomplish? Are the claims the author or teacher makes spiritually accurate?
                      A tradition can be authentic but not valid, and it can also be valid but not authentic.

                      source
                      I think that the only person that can determine the validity of personal (or shared) gnosis is one's self...determining its authenticity though, I think that is something else. Gnosis (as we are discussing it) is mostly (I think) in danger of not being authentic to the culture or tradition of its origin....but there is a trend (somewhat disappointing, IMO) of rejecting the inauthentic as invalid and it has unfortunately been weilded as a way to bully others (in,what seems to me at least, an attempt at some sort of religious superiority).
                      Last edited by thalassa; 19 Jul 2013, 09:33.
                      Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                        #26
                        Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

                        My faith is based on physical and spiritual communion. If I really truly can "feel" it, then it "is". Not sure whether that qualifies.

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                          #27
                          Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

                          Good thread! I seem to recall us having a similar one a few years back and it crashing into fire and ash.

                          My perspective on this is different then it would have been even a few months ago, because I've started getting acquainted with the folks in the local heathen community, specifically a local Vannic heathen group. I haven't had too much time to decide what I think, yet, but my impressions have been overall positive.

                          One of the things that caught my attention, in particular, is how the leadership in the group handle people's UPG. UPG is welcome, and usually raises a discussion about what is available via the eddas, etc., but if something isn't covered by data available, there is zero pressure to agree or disagree, and the attitude is positive. I particularly found it interesting that this group also considers of worth a third category: what they consider to be Group-Verified Gnosis. These are things they generally consider to be plausible, if not validated by texts, due to multiple members and/or people they know from other groups having had similar experiences. One example I can think of off the top of my head isgetting a positive response from Freya by providing rather dainty cakes or pastries (like petite-fours) and dessert wine. Obviously, you're not going to find a reference in the sagas backing that up.
                          Great Grandmother's Kitchen

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                            #28
                            Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

                            This is a very interesting and fun thread to read over~ For me, UPG is what called me back to Witchcraft. If it weren't for those experiences I had had and how I felt and knew they were true, I would not have gone back to studying Witchcraft. Though, as some have stated, I am wary to believe someone who is a) definitive in their particular UPG (i.e. I'm the reincarnation of <celebrity> and I know all that is all of being them) b) goes totally against the grain of just everything ever, like: I worship Mother Mary and she told me to sacrafice babies.

                            After watching "Through the Wormhole - Is there a Sixth Sense" (which I highly reccomend) with a buddy, we talked about reality and UPG. This was one of my points: I am in a group of 5 people and we all take a bite out of the same apple. They all claim the apple was very sweet. To me, the apple was very tart. This doesn't change the fact the apple is an apple. However, the reality to me, specially if I am not influenced by the other people's reactions, is that the apple was tart. This does not invalidate my perception/reality. Similarly, people may see the Goddess Brigid and say, "Wow, she had really firey red hair." While others may go "No, way. She's a blonde!" Neither are right or wrong.

                            There's a dangerous area when you get caught up in lore or someone else's re-telling which may cause you to reject valuable experiences you have. On the other hand, lore may give you a nice foundation to build off and start your journey.

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                              #29
                              Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

                              Originally posted by Maria de Luna View Post
                              I feel this so often, really you said the words in my brain.
                              That said, UPG is very important, I think it ias a massive part of my practice, but sometimes the things people say about the very same god/esses I worship makes me cringe. There should be some level of personal experience definitely, without that it is almost crazily dogmatic, without proper old lore to use anyway, so much of it is incomplete. The happy fluffy fairy riding a pink unicorn though, may not be the goddess you are trying to make her...
                              I agree that it gets under my skin as well when I see people say things that just are contrary to things I known about the gods / goddesses I honor and am bound to. What's really bad I suppose is when they either make them all dark and evil such as for Hecate, or this narrow scope such as for Artemis that seems like they have nothing truthful about her. I suppose what really bothers me the most though is you can't question them about it for that is seen as an attack or they scream the ever popular "You can't tell me what or how to believe!" All of that basically indicating to me any way they can not support or defend their assumptions.

                              I may not be right but I hopefully have though about my UPG enough to be able to defend my reasons why I find it as such and such.

                              - - - Updated - - -

                              Originally posted by Optimistic discord View Post
                              .. In the past there would of been a family and village information and support network to do just that, I believe the solitary pagan as we tend to mostly start with now is an alien concept. People would of started off immersed in their particular faith from birth and would to a degree all have synchronised "filters".
                              I personally think its even more than just faith. Most early spiritual practices seemed to be a complete package in that it was supported in the family, in the society and in the culture as well as the underlying mythos that bound it all together. The fairy tales and myths were as much bones to the mindset as the day to day things such as belief and practice.

                              UPG almost seemed alien, perhaps the closest being something revealed via the seeres or those who read the signs of the gods / goddesses and then told who, what or how the gods / goddesses had been offended or angered, and yes even pleased as that occurred as well.

                              Yet little to none of that seems to exist in the modern society regardless of where they are located from my experiences. As a social system we seem very much to have a separation of cultural, social, political and spiritual / religious practices.

                              - - - Updated - - -

                              There is one thing though I think that UPG appears to have influenced. That being the notion of an evolving or updating of a god / goddesses against the norms of today. Does make one wonder if the gods / goddesses do actually remain static or if they do change and evolve based upon the expectations of their followers. One only need look to modern writers and such to see some serious revamping of the elder gods / goddesses and how they are viewed.

                              So I suppose that raises the notion of UPG being defined against what you expect your god / goddess to appear as. I see nearly all the gods & goddesses I worship in their archaic forms and practices so I tend to see my UPG derived against that data set. Granted my UPG may also change in delivery as my own knowledge and understanding grows and evolves, for instance now that I know in archaic Greece a Weasel was called a polecat it makes sense to see a weasel in its place today vice my cultural notion of a polecat being a skunk. Yet I can not nor should I expect others to view it or receive it as such I think.

                              For me where UPG really gets iffy is when there is no clear archaic record one can draw upon. Considering Hecate again it's referenced about her control over the seas but not much more than that. A few references to fishermen making offerings at coastal shrines or temples is all I've really found. So it is very much a hole that is probably filled by more modern notions of what she would do and how she would act than an archaic one. Yet it seems when two or more practitioners see her realm of influences and distance off shore as being similar that gives it more support, especially if the perception is more archaic in application I think.

                              Add to that that I can't help but wonder if our SPG is due to a shared level of knowledge. Most of the people who have seen similar UPG in regards to Hecate's coastal water association had a similar depth of knowledge about her. Nearly using the same words or descriptions to describe what was shown to us or impressions placed upon us. It's like I see her coastal persona as close to that portrayed in the Pirates of the Caribbean movies for Calypso in shifting form, sphere of influence, etc. Yet clearly not Calypso.
                              I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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                                #30
                                Re: Unverified Personal Gnosis

                                I really emphasize the P in UPG. UPG has no place in my religion but it does have a place in my personal practice. Going even further I believe that UPG should only be shared if someone is teaching or if someone is asked. If you just throw things around like how you have "breakfast with Odin everyday" then you're probably just looking for attention and you'll inevitably find some.

                                - - - Updated - - -

                                I'm of the opinion that the Gods reach out to us in ways that They know we'll respond to that applies to group settings as well. Like monsno said before I start to look all cross when there is no tradition or something to backup a feeling. I'm also very cautious of anyone claiming something that could change the traditions of a religion especially if those traditions are dating back thousands of years.

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